(Proposal) Learner Prestige Class

[GnomeWorks]

My gut reaction, upon reading the class, was that it didn't seem like a core class. Core class are fairly general (or at least iconic/stereotypical), whereas this is very specialized and "out there." No reason this couldn't be a PrC (and I don't see anything wrong with a 15-level one), but I really don't like it as a core class. Just my opinion, of course.

One of my big problems with making it a less than 20-level class is the spell progression. I can't see getting access earlier than it is...

Is there anything wrong with a 20-level PrC? I'd prefer to keep it that big. 15 might work, but I really would rather 20... the prereqs would be fairly easy, as well, probably a base Will prereq and some spells, probably Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft, to some extent.

 

[Thomas Hobbes]

One of my big problems with making it a less than 20-level class is the spell progression. I can't see getting access earlier than it is....

Could you give us an idea of the spells? That might help some.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Could you give us an idea of the spells? That might help some.

I'll post a sample spell from each level. You see, right now, I'm divided between going with the original spell list I wrote up and trying to correlate them to normal d20 monster abilities, and just converting all the d20 monster abilities into spells and using those... hence me not posting any spell lists.

Aero, Lesser
Blue [Air]
Level: Blue 1
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels)
Target: 1 creature or object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: No
Learned From: Air Elemental, Small – Whirlwind
Air Elemental, Medium - Whirlwind
MP Cost: 2

You create a small whirlwind that engulfs a single target. The target takes 1d8+1/level (max +5) air damage. If the target passes a Reflex save, they take only half damage.
Creatures with the (Air) subtype are immune to air damage. Creatures with the (Earth) subtype take double damage from air damage. Objects take half damage from air damage, after accounting for hardness.

Revenge
Blue
Level: Blue 2
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 feet + 10 feet/level)
Target: One creature or object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort half
Spell Resistance: Yes
Learned From:
MP Cost: 5

You suffuse yourself with magical energy, which is then projected at a single target. The chosen target takes an amount of damage equal to your maximum hp minus your current hp. A successful Fortitude save halves this damage.

Frost
Blue [Cold]
Level: Blue 3
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels)
Target: 1 creature or object
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: No
Learned From:
MP Cost: 8

You cause a creature to take on an icier appearance, thereby granting them the Cold subtype for 1 round/level.
Creatures with the Fire subtype that are affected by this spell instead lose the Fire subtype for 1 round/level.

Twister
Blue
Level: Blue 4
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels)
Area: 10-foot burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: No
Learned From:
MP Cost: 11

You create a magical twister that halves the hit points of all creatures within the area of effect. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect.

Small Melody
Blue [Sonic]
Level: Blue 5
Components: S, V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels)
Target: 1 creature or object
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: No
Learned From:
MP Cost: 14

You create a song that shrinks a single target one size category. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect.

Stone Breath
Blue
Level: Blue 6
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels)
Area: Cone out to extreme edge of range
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: No
Learned From:
MP Cost: 17

You breathe forth a dull, grayish mist, which quickly fills the spell’s area. Each creature touched by the mist must make a Fortitude save or be instantly turned into stone.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Hello...?

 

[Pyrex]

For the purposes of Detect Magic and such, all blue spells should have a school,
I've listed suggestions below.

Aero: Seems reasonable for a first level spell. Probably still balanced if you increase the range to Medium. (Conjuration)

Revenge: Seems a little too good for a second level spell, especially as a Learner can afford to take the risk of remaining at lower HP with Conversion to protect them. Leads to a bit too much metagaming. (Necromancy)

Frost: I like it, but it should be subject to SR. (Transmutation)

Whirlwind: Conjuration-ish effects shouldn't do damage based on the attributes of the target. It should either do a defined amount of damage or allow SR. (Conjuration if damaging, or Necro if you stick with the 1/2hp model)

Small Melody: You should note that it's functionally equivalent to Reduce Person (or note why it's different) and reduce to Lvl 3. Should allow SR. (Transmutation)

Stone Breath: Way, way, way too good. Flesh to Stone is 6th, only targets one creature and has to penetrate SR. (Transmutation)

Oh, and *hijack* can you come by the Hunt for the Cirya? We've gone about as far as we can without a gm-type update.

 

[GnomeWorks]

For the purposes of Detect Magic and such, all blue spells should have a school,
I've listed suggestions below.

Good point, I forgot about that.

Aero: Seems reasonable for a first level spell. Probably still balanced if you increase the range to Medium. (Conjuration)

/me nods.

Don't know about changing the range. As you can see from the examples above, most Blue spells have a Close range and S component... so I'm a little leary (sp?) of changing it to Medium, even if it would be balanced. Conjuration sounds like it would fit.

Revenge: Seems a little too good for a second level spell, especially as a Learner can afford to take the risk of remaining at lower HP with Conversion to protect them. Leads to a bit too much metagaming. (Necromancy)

You do have a point in that it is a little powerful. However, do note that they only get a d6 HD... admittedly, they could multiclass with Barbarian or something... it should probably be third or fourth.

Also note that conversion, while helpful, does not eliminate the damage entirely. And once out of MP...

As for the metagaming - there is going to be some of that. There are, IIRC, three spells that deal directly with the blue mage's HP, and a few that deal with a target's HP or MP. I don't think they're too bad, meta-gaming wise, and if you take Peep and Scan into account... I don't think it's so meta-gamey as to be worrisome.

Necromancy sounds like a good fit.

Frost: I like it, but it should be subject to SR. (Transmutation)

I admit that I'm not too good in determining what should allow SR and what shouldn't. My base premise was that anything that allowed a saving throw didn't allow SR, and vice-versa. There are a few exceptions, IIRC, but overall most allowed saving throws, so very few have SR.

Transmutation fits.

Whirlwind: Conjuration-ish effects shouldn't do damage based on the attributes of the target. It should either do a defined amount of damage or allow SR. (Conjuration if damaging, or Necro if you stick with the 1/2hp model)

Sorry, description kind of got in the way there. I'd prefer to keep it doing 1/2 HP, so Necro fits.

Small Melody: You should note that it's functionally equivalent to Reduce Person (or note why it's different) and reduce to Lvl 3. Should allow SR. (Transmutation)

Hmm... name of the spell almost implies a cone or emanation effect, rather than single target. If it affected a number of creatures equal to half the learner's level, would that be more balanced with it's current level?

SR - it allows a save. Should both be allowed?

Transmutation definitely fits.

Stone Breath: Way, way, way too good. Flesh to Stone is 6th, only targets one creature and has to penetrate SR. (Transmutation)

Alright... hmm. Change the name to Petrifying Gaze (ie, basilisk), and change mechanically to fit Flesh to Stone; though it would be gaze-based.

Again, it allows a save, so I don't know about SR.

Transmutation fits.

Oh, and *hijack* can you come by the Hunt for the Cirya? We've gone about as far as we can without a gm-type update.

Yep, will do. Sorry about the wait...

 

[Uriel]

Oh, and *hijack* can you come by the Hunt for the Cirya? We've gone about as far as we can without a gm-type update.

What he said. I'm not the Judge, but I had more than one player ask me if I could nudge you, since you hadn't posted since the 11th.
*friendly nudge*
-Uriel

 

[Thomas Hobbes]

Actually, IIRC, the whole save/SR thing goes like this: Things that directly affect the opponent magically give SR (See "When Spell Resistance Applies, DMG pg.298). That means pretty much everything.

As for Twister, I'd make it a die roll of damage (using the rules for high wind- use Whirlwind as some of benchmark). If you really want it the way it is, bring it in line with haste, which used to be everything but 1d4 and is now 10/level by making it 5/level.

But on reflection, it seems kinda over powered. Maybe that's just me.

 

[Pyrex]

I admit that I'm not too good in determining what should allow SR and what shouldn't. My base premise was that anything that allowed a saving throw didn't allow SR, and vice-versa. There are a few exceptions, IIRC, but overall most allowed saving throws, so very few have SR.

By and large, any spell that effects a creature directly (as opposed to conjuration spells, which create something to affect the creature indirectly) have to penetrate SR.

This includes virtually all Evocation, Transmutation and Necromancy spells in the SRD.

Hmm... name of the spell almost implies a cone or emanation effect, rather than single target. If it affected a number of creatures equal to half the learner's level, would that be more balanced with it's current level?

SR - it allows a save. Should both be allowed?

Hmm 'Reduce Person' +2lvl to affect any creature type, +2lvl to increase the number of targets, sounds good to me.
SR = Yes (Take a look at Reduce Person it allows both a save and SR)

Alright... hmm. Change the name to Petrifying Gaze (ie, basilisk), and change mechanically to fit Flesh to Stone; though it would be gaze-based.

Again, it allows a save, so I don't know about SR.

If you're changing it to function as a gaze, how long will it grant the caster the gaze attack?
Even if it's only one round it's still too good compared to Flesh to Stone which is also sixth level (and is Fort negates, SR=Yes)

 

[GnomeWorks]

By and large, any spell that effects a creature directly (as opposed to conjuration spells, which create something to affect the creature indirectly) have to penetrate SR.

This includes virtually all Evocation, Transmutation and Necromancy spells in the SRD.

That sounds reasonable. Thanks for the clarification.

Hmm 'Reduce Person' +2lvl to affect any creature type, +2lvl to increase the number of targets, sounds good to me.
SR = Yes (Take a look at Reduce Person it allows both a save and SR)

Okay.

If you're changing it to function as a gaze, how long will it grant the caster the gaze attack?
Even if it's only one round it's still too good compared to Flesh to Stone which is also sixth level (and is Fort negates, SR=Yes)

I'd say 1 round/level. Also, it's about equal. Sure, it has a longer duration, but the targets have another chance to avoid it (that being by using alternative methods to avoid the gaze).