Every major rules debate on this forum should involve someone putting up their avatar or signature or they must back down from their position!Well this definitely is more entertaining than a normal rules debate
Proposed Wager with DracoSuave - Blurred Step
- Thread starter Obryn
- Start date
I don't care one way or the other, but kudos for introducing a new (and fun and non-inflammatory) way to spice up rules discussions!
Obryn
Hero
Thanks folks
In response to Draco pointing out Lightning Rush, I'll just say...
(1) A Defender shouldn't have to wait until Level 7 to be good at their job, and
(2) A psionic defender shouldn't have to use up one of their three at-wills to be good at their job.
While I think Lightning Rush pretty much rocks, it doesn't fix the problem with Blurred Step, itself.
-O
In response to Draco pointing out Lightning Rush, I'll just say...
(1) A Defender shouldn't have to wait until Level 7 to be good at their job, and
(2) A psionic defender shouldn't have to use up one of their three at-wills to be good at their job.
While I think Lightning Rush pretty much rocks, it doesn't fix the problem with Blurred Step, itself.
-O
Mr. Teapot
First Post
Every major rules debate on this forum should involve someone putting up their avatar or signature or they must back down from their position!
I second the motion.
DracoSuave
First Post
Thanks folks
In response to Draco pointing out Lightning Rush, I'll just say...
(1) A Defender shouldn't have to wait until Level 7 to be good at their job, and
(2) A psionic defender shouldn't have to use up one of their three at-wills to be good at their job.
1) He's waiting until level 7 to make up for other players who are bad at -their- job.
Melee characters should be near him. His upside for that is tremendous.
Ranged characters should be near him. This paradigm of Ranged characters being a million years away from the fight is the sole reason why 'shift and charge' works in the first place. It's bad tactics on the players' part.
2) Oh contraire. At-wills are for exactly that purpose.
Battleminds are -equally- as sticky as a Warden. Wardens have the same 'gotta be in melee to be worth a damn' restriction and they have the tools to get the job done just fine. Blurred Step as a free action isn't 'what they need to be fixed.' That goes a little too far.
(also, if you know who they plan to charge, you can use blurred step to interpose yourself. Blurred step works in any direction. It's a very flexible tool, not just for persuing.)
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Obryn
Hero
I dunno; the other defenders do pretty well right out of the gate. He's below any of them at low level, by a pretty wide margin.
Naah. Class features are to make a Defender be a good Defender. Blurred Step is a class feature; Lightning Rush is not. His defending competency should not cost him 33% of his entire At Will and Encounter selection.
Wardens' class features work to pull enemies back into melee, Mr. Hasselhoff.
Not one of their powers.-O
While I agree with you, Obryn, that Blurring Step doesn't work as intended and will likely get erattaed (my guess: free action 1/opponent or free action 1/round) eventually, what Draco fairly clearly meant on a close read was that the Battlemind needs Lightning Rush only if her teammates aren't doing their job right -- they don't have to set up a charge that bad guys can shift away from the BM into; they can stay behind the BM or otherwise make sure they're not a ticket to the monster getting away from the BM. He wasn't saying that the BM is making up for the other defender types not being good at their job, though that's how I read it the first time, too.
DracoSuave
First Post
Wardens' class features work to pull enemies back into melee, Mr. Hasselhoff.
-O
The warden's Nature's Grasp works to pull the enemy one square closer to melee.
You'll find that's the same mileage you get out of Blurred Step, except Blurred Step can be used to interpose yourself beside another creature you've marked, and continue the defenderness on -that- turn.
Blurred Step is usable on multiple monsters, Nature's Grasp cannot.
The ONLY defender that can -stop- the shift-charge is a Fighter. Paladins can't, Swordmages can't, Wardens can't, and Battleminds can't.
If you're having a problem with holding a foe, do remember you have at-wills that penalize attack rolls, that knock them prone, or turn your protected ally invisible.
You don't use your at-wills to fulfill your role? Bollucks. Look at Barbarians. Entire builds have formed around Twin Strike. Hell, look at every controller in the game. Battleminds use the same design mentality. They have class features and at-will powers that make them incredibly tactical.
When evaluating a class you do not stop evaluating when you read "Level 1 At-Will Disciplines".
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Dice4Hire
First Post
I really have to agree here. Looking at characters over levels is fine, and their powers do count a lot for what they can do. It is not jsut class features and only class features.
DracoSuave
First Post
Here's an example of why you cannot simply look at battlemind's features:
Restricting Smite Paladin Attack 27
Encounter - Divine, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 3[W] + Charisma modifier damage, and the target is marked until the end of your next turn. In addition, the target cannot gain line of effect to anyone but you until the end of your next turn.
This is what an encounter power at level 27 looks like for a paladin.
------------------------
At·Will - Augmentable, Psionic, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. AC
Augment 2
Hit: 2[W] + Constitution modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, your allies are invisible to the target while they aren't adjacent to it.
This is what an Augment 2 power looks like at level 3 for a battlemind.
-----------------------
The effects here are -very- similiar. What is epic for one kind of defender tho, is -heroic- for another.
At level 23, your at-wills include knocking them prone AND getting OAs if they stand up, or making the area around you AND your allies difficult terrain.
AT. WILL.
And that's not counting the usual assortment of 'slide 1' 'get temp hps' 'do a bit of damage' that most defenders have clogging up their slots. The fighter has some basic level tools to do damage, and has to rely on his features to really defend. The battlemind has tools to -defend- while he does damage, and his features suppliment his tools.
It's a completely different playstyle, but until one sees it in action, it can't really be judged based on features alone.
Restricting Smite Paladin Attack 27
Encounter - Divine, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 3[W] + Charisma modifier damage, and the target is marked until the end of your next turn. In addition, the target cannot gain line of effect to anyone but you until the end of your next turn.
This is what an encounter power at level 27 looks like for a paladin.
------------------------
At·Will - Augmentable, Psionic, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. AC
Augment 2
Hit: 2[W] + Constitution modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, your allies are invisible to the target while they aren't adjacent to it.
This is what an Augment 2 power looks like at level 3 for a battlemind.
-----------------------
The effects here are -very- similiar. What is epic for one kind of defender tho, is -heroic- for another.
At level 23, your at-wills include knocking them prone AND getting OAs if they stand up, or making the area around you AND your allies difficult terrain.
AT. WILL.
And that's not counting the usual assortment of 'slide 1' 'get temp hps' 'do a bit of damage' that most defenders have clogging up their slots. The fighter has some basic level tools to do damage, and has to rely on his features to really defend. The battlemind has tools to -defend- while he does damage, and his features suppliment his tools.
It's a completely different playstyle, but until one sees it in action, it can't really be judged based on features alone.
