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Pros and Cons

FireLance

Legend
He is of the opinion that all of the characters are the same so why have different classes in the first place.
4E characters are "the same" in pretty much the same way that a 3e cleric and a 3e wizard are "the same". They have similar power structures - daily prepared spells of varying levels - but the nature of their spells (occasional overlaps aside) are very different.
 

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Darrin Drader

Explorer
Does anybody hate it and feels that 3e is better? and.... why are mini's necessary?

Play Descent by FFG. It is classified as a tactical strategy game. Then play 4E. Tell me if they seem more similar to each other than 4E does to 3.5 and previous editions.

Now play 1E (or even 2E for that matter). It is classified as a roleplaying game. Then play 3.5 (or, as you mentioned, you've already played a lot of it). Tell me if they seem more similar to each other than 3.5 does to Descent and other tactical strategy games.

If you prefer tactical strategy games like Descent then 4E should be your cup of tea. If you prefer roleplaying games then run, don't walk, as far away as you can get.
 

AllisterH

First Post
If you prefer tactical strategy games like Descent then 4E should be your cup of tea. If you prefer roleplaying games then run, don't walk, as far away as you can get.

Funny thin about this claim about 4e not being a roleplaying game...

I actually checked the PHB from both 2e (black cover), the 3.0 PHb (the one with the monsters) and the 4e PHB and you know what?

The 4.0 PHB actually talks and gives advice about roleplaying....It literally blows away either the 2.0 or 3.0 PHB on what I consider "essential" roleplaying advice.

As an aside, I take it you have never played Disgaea, Final Fantasy Tactics or Fallout Tactics or X-com?

I'm not sure why "tactics in combat matter" is considered anathema to roleplaying? Not baiting you Darrin but I'm not sure where this idea came to be?

To me anyway, if I was talking to my M:TG fans, 3.0 combat was Constructed whereas 4.0 combat is akin to limited. The former, combat success is mostly based on the prebattle build/buff of your character. Just like in Constructed, your success in battle is roughly 75% dependant on what you do BEFORE the battle whereas the latter, it is closer to a 50/50 split.
 

JeffB

Legend
The 4.0 PHB actually talks and gives advice about roleplaying....It literally blows away either the 2.0 or 3.0 PHB on what I consider "essential" roleplaying advice.

The 4E books seem to get a bad rap, but you are right- the books are full of story/RP ideas compared to previous books.

I really don't understand the people who feel 4E doesn't encourage RP/Story. Maybe it's tunnel vision centered on the class/powers chapters? Then again all the powers/spells/exploits have flavor descriptions to encourage the roleplay/story aspect. Barring some spells, you don't see description to nearly the same extent in prior editions either (and the Spell and feat chapters are just as daunting if not moreso to read in 3.0/3.5- it's like a college textbook)

The 3.0 DMG is mostly a collection of rules, tables and charts (3.5 is slightly better). The 2E DMG has its moments if you dig deep enough, but is mainly just a re-hash of the PHB combat chapter and the magic item tables/descriptions. Gary's DMG is brimming with wonderful idea kernels/seeds, but is still chock full of rules (many of which should have been in the PHB). The 4E DMG is actually full of advice on how to run the game- mechanically in a few places, but MOSTLY is a book centered on providing a good story/setting/adventure/campaign for the players.

Even the 4E MM has story elements for the monsters. Granted it's not boiling over with story elements for all the monsters but it's there in the Lore sections for many (and for some like Dragons, Fomorians, Demons, Devils, and such it's quite detailed). It's certainly as much or more than OD&D/1E and I don't see people complaining about those monster descriptions.

I can totally understand people don't like how 4E deviates from prior editions in the way classes/mechanics are handled, or you hate the fact that minis/counters are needed (I do as well to a certain extent), or some other rules element- but as a whole it's got more "story elements" in the three core books than any previous edition does.

EDIT- The really funny(sad) thing is how similar these arguments/claims are to the ones being made by the 2E folks when 3E surfaced. it;s the EXACT SAME STUFF. Communities like Dragonsfoot were created in the wake of "3E SUX! . Fighters get FEATS??? Magic Users can use SWORDS??? There is no System Shock??? NO rolling for initiative each round?? 3E is just a glorified combat wargame for players who need to be coddled! " And we all know that's simply not true- i's all how you play/run the game right?
 
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StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
If you prefer tactical strategy games like Descent then 4E should be your cup of tea. If you prefer roleplaying games then run, don't walk, as far away as you can get.

Well, I enjoy tactical strategy games, and still prefer 3E. 4E mostly sacked the simulationist aspect of gaming, which I really didn't like. In terms of gamist aspects, it has more than 3E, but 3E already had ambiguous hp representation, non-sensical combat rounds (despite the initative, everything should all be happening roughly simultaneously over 6 seconds...yeah, right), and so on. 4E is attrative to gamist people mainly for not treating everything as equal in terms of the rules (NPCs work differently than PCs, even if they're the same race as the PC) and placing balance above most everything else in importance. Both of which make the game smoother and easier to DM.

But people who would call themselves mainly storytellers also often flock to it because...quite simply, DM fiat is hard-coded into page 42 of the DMG to resolve any issue that isn't a textbook use of a skill or power...or even sometimes when using it exactly as intended. A lot of people complain that 3E had rules for everything. Which is ridiculous and hyberbole, but it does have a lot of example DCs and numbers for things, examples of what size of modifer (often +/-2, sometimes 5, 8, 10...) is appropriate for circumstantial alterations, and tries its hardest to gve you the tools to compare whatever to. 4E simply has you base it on the characters' relative level, which I find grating. For a storyteller, I guess this is a good thing, the rules being completely and unarguably subject to what the DM wants so the plot can't be affected.


Anyway...

Pros:
*Easier/faster to prepare games, run encounters, and build characters
*Randomness in character generation is all but eliminated (contributes to Pro #1, and makes it so you never get a situation where you can't play a wizard like you wanted to because you rolled all 13's)
*Classes are more closely balanced at all levels of play than 3E
*Anyone can handle out of combat utility magic with just one feat (could also consider this a con)
*No longer need feats to add stats to their logical attack rolls. For example, light weapons use dex to hit, heavy thrown weapons use str
*Early levels are far less randomly deadly
*Players will have shorter rounds, and thus more rounds to act and do stuff. However, combat also takes far more rounds than 3E, so shorter combat does not exist as a pro.
*No save or die (though I recall a thread about a monster that had something nearly this)
*Less room to use system mastery and pre-game planning to succeed. I personally hate this, and I'm sure you know your players well enough to know if they will too, but the consensus seems to label it a pro.

Cons:
*The skill system is utterly gutted. I don't mind the combination of skills so much (though Perception seems like quite the no-brainer to get if you can), but the elimination of skills like craft irks me. The biggest issue, though, is the homogeny of training levels. Instead of individual ranks gained each level, you're either trained or not, the difference being a flat, unchanging 5 points. I like more variety in the levels of dedication. Also, EVERYONE gets better at a skill solely from leveling up, as you add 1/2 level to all skill rolls. Functionally, if you're always in level appropriate encounters, your chances of winning an opposed skill roll stay the same (enemies also get the 1/2 level). On unopposed skill checks, like climbing against a DC, it means you get better at climbing ven if you've never once practiced it before in your entire life. Just because you're an epic character, you can climb better than a low level climbing expert. So, they sacrificed major simulation elements for a "false gain" in gamist aspirations.
*Skill challenges apparently don't work. This gets a separate con, if only because the first con already went on so long :)
*Very twisted alteration of niche protection. In 3E, only rogues and the like can disable traps. Now anyone can. In 4E, only classes that get ranged powers should bother picking up a bow (unless you really have no other means of attacking at all). In 3E, lots of classes could become accomplished archers solely by using their own class resources (feats, buff spells). In 4e, if you want an archer or a TWF, better be a ranger...
*Punishing and limited multiclassing system. Instead of the freedom of 3E's system, in 4E you have to wait till level 11 and spend feats to gain a small smattering of the secondary class's features with limited use. There is no true multiclassing.
*Lack of rules for basic things. No table of hardness and hit points for breakable materials (up to the DM). At least in the core books, no disarm rules at all. Tripping is only available as class powers, it's somehow too complicated to be a basic attack available at will. Grappling doesn't really exist. You can hug a guy and struggle to keep him from moving, but you can't really beat him up with unarmed damage, pin him, etc... I forget, but I think he can even still attack other people around him!
*Too much combat focus. Very few powers have out of combat uses, and those that are get severe limitations in power or availability. There are rituals, but they tend to be expensive and take several minutes or more to cast. They will not help you on the spot.
*Harder to make "different" builds. The class powers list and the fact that many classes have pre-set builds that focus on one stat or another, with powers working based on said stats, tends to basically force you to be a "strength rogue" or "charisma rogue;" a "int warlord" or a "cha warlord," which makes it very hard to try something totally different. 3E kinda of needed splats, but eventually you could generally try just about anything with any class and do ok. A charisma fighter could focus on feats to intimidate better in combat, use cha to add to will saves, and give bard-like boosts to allies by being inspiring. A wizard could enter a fighter-mage prestige class, take Arcane Strike feat, and so on, and pool all his resources towards thumping things with his huge mallet (thanks to spells to enlarge himself, give him godly str, and wield an effectively collasal hamer). 4E is far more rigid in what each class can do.
 

MichaelK

First Post
Stream of the Sky, it's funny how many of your Pros there I would consider to be Cons and vice versa. I won't waste peoples time by going into which ones, but it just shows how often things are subjective.

Then again, I'm very simulationist/gamist so many of the 'improvements' of 4e were the exact opposite of what I was looking for.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Oh yeah. Totally. A lot of the things I list as pros I consider cons. I'm sure some of my cons are pros for other people... The OP wanted it divided as pros and cons instead of just a list of differences, what can I do?

I didn't even get into the things I consider a complete wash. Like the availability of healing to every single class via healing surges, but on the flipside having a much more finite amount of healing available since even potions use up said surges, while as in 3E if you surive the encounter you cna just drain down a wand of cure light and be good to go, over and over again...
 

malraux

First Post
For me, the big pros of 4e:

As a DM, prep time is significantly shorter and more fun. Especially with the Compendium, I can prepare for the average 4 hour game session is 1-2 hours. It feels exactly the reverse from 3e to me.

As a player, the character builder app is good. Really good. If WotC published it, you can do it in the CB. Typically in minutes.

Cons: the grind can be an issue. It does take some skill to avoid the grind in 4e combat.

I'll also say that the game plays entirely different from it reads. Reading it, everything seems identical. In play, its very different. You really cannot get the gestalt impression of a class just by reading it. In addition, classes are designed to play together. Every role has its advantages and weaknesses that overlap with the other roles.
 

MichaelK

First Post
The OP wanted it divided as pros and cons instead of just a list of differences, what can I do?

Absolutely, no I just thought it was a relevant consideration to point out.

I didn't even get into the things I consider a complete wash. Like the availability of healing to every single class via healing surges, but on the flipside having a much more finite amount of healing available since even potions use up said surges, while as in 3E if you surive the encounter you cna just drain down a wand of cure light and be good to go, over and over again...

Actually I rather liked the idea, if not the specific mechanics. I've considered similar house-rules myself, before I decided that I don't mind a character sacrificing their permanent assets for a short term benefit in a long running campaign. (As I don't give out extra treasure to replace what has been spent on expendable items).

That wand of cure light wounds, and the next one and the next one are probably going to be less disruptive than what they could buy if they saved up that money and spent it on some really effective items.
 

Doug> Long live the Glasgow Rangers.

Pfft! may prune-eating kobolds infest both Ibrox and Celtic Park!! ;)
(hm, maybe they have already...:devil: )

On a more serious note, I agree with the folk who are ++ for 4th ed :)
To me, as DM, and as a wanna-be player, it's just so much better,
3rd ed had become a damn near heart breaking chore as a DM, ick.

the DDi Character Builder and Compendium make it vastly simpler to make characters and encounters!

it takes a bit of getting used to though, in that it's no longer "simulationist", that things work a bit different in outlook.

Example: Fireball isn't as much damage is it used to be on average...but it can crit, the PLAYER rolls to hit the enemy vs Reflex defence (saving the DM hassle of rolling saves all the damn time), and many enemies will be 1 hit point "minions" so any successful hit kills them (they never take damage on a miss, and simplify combats a ton)

quite a change, but when you grokk it, it's great! :)
 

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