Protecting fallen comrades

[radmod]

Tordek falls to the orc's savage attack. Ignoring the combat raging around him, the orc swings his mighty axe, cleaving Tordek's skull like a ripe melon.

Back in 2e, my PCs would occupy the spot of a fallen foe. Then, they argued, the simple act of continuing to fight combat from that spot meant the foe would take incidental damage, effectively killing it (yet, ignoring the slippery mess the spot would be). Fine, I said, but I use the "if you can do it, they can do it" rule (though I let them do it first). So when I began to do the same thing they were strenuous in their objections. Likewise, they objected when I would coup de grace fallen PCs, even though they did it to my monsters first.

Because of this, I implemented several house rules and I'm asking for comments/suggestions for 3.5.

1) Coup de grace. Originally I said you couldn't do a CdG if combat was occuring within 20 feet of the action. Eventually, I decided that simply saying until the combat was over was easier. The unrealistic idea was that no-one would waste time doing a CdG when combat was undecided.
2) Attacking a fallen foe. If a foe falls, then a creature can choose to use one of it's regular attacks to strike it. Technically, one could do so with an AoO but it was decided by all to use the "That simply isn't cricket" rule.
3) Protecting a fallen comrade. No one really likes killing a PC in such a manner so I decided that you could protect a fallen comrade from such attacks by occupying its space. However, to do so involved a penalty. Essentially, one must stand there, relatively unmoving, so the PC loses its DEX bonus and all dex like AC bonuses (such as dodge) as well as similar abilities. Special note: if a creature has a free move action it can attempt it, outside of normal initiative, to occupy the spot before the enemy does.

It must be noted that I would never use these rules, nor even mention them, unless the PCs attempt these actions first.

Any comments/suggestions?

 

[ValhallaGH]

I implemented several house rules and I'm asking for comments/suggestions for 3.5.

1) Coup de grace. Originally I said you couldn't do a CdG if combat was occuring within 20 feet of the action. Eventually, I decided that simply saying until the combat was over was easier. The unrealistic idea was that no-one would waste time doing a CdG when combat was undecided.

Unless the attacker has a specific reason to make sure that particular foe does not survive. Generally, though, CdG is unneeded for fallen foes. They'll probably bleed out, and you can always finish them off after the fight.
If the PCs want to waste a turn killing the critter then let them. It makes it easier for the critter's allies to kill the PCs.

2) Attacking a fallen foe. If a foe falls, then a creature can choose to use one of it's regular attacks to strike it. Technically, one could do so with an AoO but it was decided by all to use the "That simply isn't cricket" rule.

What? Falling prone doesn't provoke an AoO (standing up does). As such, there is no AoO to use against a fallen foe. Further, helpless creatures cannot take any of the actions that provoke an attack of opportunity. Even if they could, you're correct "That simple isn't cricket". (Though I do wonder how you guys decided it was allowed.)

As for attacking the fallen, it has the same weaknesses as CdG (minus the AoO). Unless you need / really want to make sure the bastich stays down, it's a complete waste of actions that could be used to help your own side.

3) Protecting a fallen comrade. No one really likes killing a PC in such a manner so I decided that you could protect a fallen comrade from such attacks by occupying its space. However, to do so involved a penalty. Essentially, one must stand there, relatively unmoving, so the PC loses its DEX bonus and all dex like AC bonuses (such as dodge) as well as similar abilities. Special note: if a creature has a free move action it can attempt it, outside of normal initiative, to occupy the spot before the enemy does.

I kind of like this part, though having to stand over the ally seems unneeded.
CdG provokes an AoO, so it's a poor choice if someone is next to / over the fallen. Also, attacking the fallen in any fashion has the mentioned flaws.

3) as written: Enter helpless creature's square. Become Flat-Footed (regardless of special abilities). No one can attack the helpless creature as long as your character is not helpless (and remains there).
Response: Eh. Very situational and very nasty when fighting sneak-attack creatures. Much better to just disarm / sunder their weapons and make them give up / flee. Or just throw up a prismatic sphere over the fallen and keep fighting. Still, it actually has a little bit of use. Unless you're fighting area attacks.
Alternative: Pick up fallen creature. Carry him to safety. He is now a carried object, and uses those rules for being attacked.


I hope you find some of that helpful. Best of luck.

 

[radmod]

It makes it easier for the critter's allies to kill the PCs.

Hence, the house rule for CdG as previously noted; no one wants to see PCs killed outright like that.

What? Falling prone doesn't provoke an AoO (standing up does).

Fallen. As in knocked out, unconscious, dying, dead, etc. Not simply prone.

Even if they could, you're correct "That simple isn't cricket". (Though I do wonder how you guys decided it was allowed.)

From the SRD: "Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free."
It was reasonably argued by a player, that since the requirement for an AoO was essentially the inability to adequately defend oneself that an AoO could be performed by a creature taking "no action" and had a "lapse in defense". However, I refused, saying that a normal attack against a helpless creature had to be a regular attack (like a CdG). It was also a compromise since otherwise I had to make special rules for damaging a fallen foe whose spot one occupies.

As for attacking the fallen, it has the same weaknesses as CdG (minus the AoO). Unless you need / really want to make sure the bastich stays down, it's a complete waste of actions that could be used to help your own side.

Also it was reasonably argued that a normal attack against a fallen foe (unlike a CdG) could be performed while defending oneself from other attacks. As to keeping the creature down, you would be surprised. Unlike other DMs I would often have an enemy cleric cast healing spells on their own side and putting them back in the fight. Or perhaps the creature has regen/fast healing.

3) as written: Enter helpless creature's square. Become Flat-Footed (regardless of special abilities). No one can attack the helpless creature as long as your character is not helpless (and remains there).

Right. I always forget about calling it 'flat-footed.' Thanks.

Or just throw up a prismatic sphere over the fallen and keep fighting.

LOL. Like my PCs get prismatic sphere. I generally don't play that high.

Alternative: Pick up fallen creature. Carry him to safety. He is now a carried object, and uses those rules for being attacked.

All the while provoking AoOs. This is the situation though that I encourage my players to do and I allow, though it is somewhat unrealistic. Essentially, one guy protects, while another grabs the fallen and drags him out.
Unfortunately, I'm a 'mean' DM, meaning I treat the fallen as helpless creatures and therefore subject to attacks/damage (like when an escaping PC carried off a fallen comrade and was attacked by bowfire - the comrade died). I've seen many DMs ignore fallen PCs (such as against AoE spells), I don't.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Hence, the house rule for CdG as previously noted; no one wants to see PCs killed outright like that.

You misunderstood. The fact that PCs are wasting actions using Coup de Grace on monsters makes it easier for the other monsters (NPCs, whatever) to kill the PCs. Monsters don't waste time on CdG (barring personal grudges or sacrificial rituals) because they need all their actions to have a prayer of victory. If the PCs start wasting actions then it sucks to be the PCs.

Fallen. As in knocked out, unconscious, dying, dead, etc. Not simply prone.

From the SRD: "Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free."
It was reasonably argued by a player, that since the requirement for an AoO was essentially the inability to adequately defend oneself that an AoO could be performed by a creature taking "no action" and had a "lapse in defense". However, I refused, saying that a normal attack against a helpless creature had to be a regular attack (like a CdG). It was also a compromise since otherwise I had to make special rules for damaging a fallen foe whose spot one occupies.

So, because of a house rule that being unconscious provokes an AoO, you had to implement another house rule that you couldn't use an AoO on a dying foe.
... Why not just run it as written? Going unconscious does not provoke; falling prone does not provoke. Therefore, getting beaten to near death can't provoke.

Also it was reasonably argued that a normal attack against a fallen foe (unlike a CdG) could be performed while defending oneself from other attacks.

You mean people reasonably argued for the Rules As Written? That was necessary?

As to keeping the creature down, you would be surprised. Unlike other DMs I would often have an enemy cleric cast healing spells on their own side and putting them back in the fight. Or perhaps the creature has regen/fast healing.

No, critters get back up. That never surprises me. What amazes me are:

• That the fallen aren't already dead. In my experience foes either go to disabled (0) or go straight to dead. That pesky -1 to -9? Skip that, go straight to -16 and expire.
• That PCs don't simply Fireball / Burning Hands the area and kill the wounded (who automatically fail their reflex save, being helpless and all) and the previously unwounded that way.
• That there are enemy clerics that don't provoke with their healing spells.
• That the enemy clerics aren't the first target of the PCs. That's just poor planning on the PCs' part.
• That the enemy clerics prepared enough healing spells to feel that spending some on their allies was useful. (Or that the party is fighting good clerics who can spontaneously heal.)
• That you find ways to punish PCs for tactically intelligent responses to how you run your foes. "Foes that we put near death keep being healed and returning to the fight. From now on, kill it before you move on," is an intelligent response to the circumstances you're describing. Punishing them for it seems lame, to me.

All the while provoking AoOs.

Whine? "Oh no, it's an AoO! From an orc, with a +4 attack. Against my 23 AC. And he's already used his AoO for this round. Never mind."
Move to Ally: maybe? Depends on too much to cover here.
Pick up: AoO.
End turn (two move actions): No AoO.
Withdraw: No AoO for the first 5'.

This is the situation though that I encourage my players to do and I allow, though it is somewhat unrealistic.

Explain how making pick up is unrealistic.

Essentially, one guy protects, while another grabs the fallen and drags him out.

Unfortunately, I'm a 'mean' DM, meaning I treat the fallen as helpless creatures and therefore subject to attacks/damage (like when an escaping PC carried off a fallen comrade and was attacked by bowfire - the comrade died). I've seen many DMs ignore fallen PCs (such as against AoE spells), I don't.

Monsters ignore fallen PCs for the same reason PCs ignore fallen monsters; they're either dead, dying, or can be killed after the fight. Dropping the active characters right-the-hell-now is a lot more important.

Area effects are nasty for everyone. >

 

[Dross]

...So when I began to do the same thing they were strenuous in their objections. Likewise, they objected when I would coup de grace fallen PCs, even though they did it to my monsters first.

snip

Any comments/suggestions?

I would not be implementing these house rules, as my first question would be:
"Why would they not, why is their motivation different than yours?"

It smells as if they expect enemies to just fall before the PC's because of the latter's bad breath.

Mind you as someone pointed out there does need to be a reason for the CDG. Usually the threat from remaining foes is enough to prevent CDG or normal attacks from either side.
My reasons are:

• The personal vendetta already mentioned (Ranger's Fav enemy might be enough, but there would be other factors involved as well).
• Orders to mindless things (skelos, golems) like "tear him limb from limb," related to the above point. Rage I wouldn't consider the same unless it also meets other criteria.
• The foe has space, time and cannot do anything more useful (wizard out of spells say, cannot reach another PC even if charging/running. etc) than ensuring that an enemy will not get back up.
• A last act of defiance if there is no escape. Not everything will have the "take one with me attitude" but there is nothing stopping a fanatic doing so. But I also usually have most foes try to flee when the fight turns really bad, if not before.
• While not a CDG: dragging prey away.

Those points would be as close to house rules as I'd have: reasons for why someone would do it.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

1) Coup de grace. Originally I said you couldn't do a CdG if combat was occuring within 20 feet of the action. Eventually, I decided that simply saying until the combat was over was easier. The unrealistic idea was that no-one would waste time doing a CdG when combat was undecided.

This is not really necessary. Performing a CdG already provokes an attack of opportunity. If someone wants to protect a downed ally, they can simply remain in (or move to) the area to protect them.

2) Attacking a fallen foe. If a foe falls, then a creature can choose to use one of it's regular attacks to strike it. Technically, one could do so with an AoO but it was decided by all to use the "That simply isn't cricket" rule.

Being unconscious does not normally provoke attacks of opportunity. Do dead creatures provoke attacks of opportunity in your house rules? Do creatures have to stop and make Heal checks to find out if someone is unconscious or dead before deciding that they are going to make an attack of opportunity? Seems like a lot of unnecessary complication.

3) Protecting a fallen comrade. No one really likes killing a PC in such a manner so I decided that you could protect a fallen comrade from such attacks by occupying its space. However, to do so involved a penalty. Essentially, one must stand there, relatively unmoving, so the PC loses its DEX bonus and all dex like AC bonuses (such as dodge) as well as similar abilities. Special note: if a creature has a free move action it can attempt it, outside of normal initiative, to occupy the spot before the enemy does.

Too harsh. If characters want to heroically protect their downed companions (or other bystanders), they should be rewarded for doing so, rather than punished. Also, do not forget that the 'spot' over which they are standing guard is a five foot by five foot square, Which is pretty big.