Protection From Evil item...

[plavi]

Dear readers,

a question is troubling my mind and I would like your opinion on the following matter.
First, a short overview. I am running a low-power but high-roleplay campaign where the characters are arount leved 10 now after 1.5 years of playing. At the moment they are being plagued by the forefront of a demonic invasion and are being harassed by Erynyes that are using their charm ability to full effect. Now for the question:

A character in my campaign wants a certain item made, a shield that gives him a permanent Protection From Evil. He has dazzled me with figures and amazed me with numbers from the DMG and has assured me the price would be minimal since it is, still, a first level spell.

I think not. I personally had the following in mind that the item would give:
+3 ac vs evil (which is in effect all the players are fighting for they are good)
+2 saves versus evil
immunity to mind affecting spells
immunity to touch by summoned creatures

I can ofcourse always rule-0 it, but I'd rather let him see the light than force it upon him.

I reasoned the following: a shield +1 (minimum requirement for magic armor) and the equivalent of a Ring of Protection +2 (at least).
Which I see as a total of a +3 enchantment, and a quick count makes that 9000 gp I believe (haven't got the book here).

As an alternative he says 'give me 3x day 10 mins' but in effect that would be almost exactly the same as having it permanently.

What are your opinions, perhaps even experiences and if I am lucky your previous rulings on a matter such as these? And how should I read the DMG in this way, for it confuses me a bit.

Thanx & Regards

Chris
Netherlands

 

[Hypersmurf]

This isn't a bad article to read.

What class is the character? If he has any bard, cleric, paladin, sorcerer, or wizard levels, just point him at a CL10 wand. 7,500gp for 50 charges.

Using the DMG tables religiously, I come up with 21,600 for the Protection from Evil power (3x10mins/day), or 18,000 for 50 charges of 10mins/day (assuming he doesn't have the spell on a spell list).

Add to that just over a grand for the price of the shield.

-Hyp.

 

[plavi]

More...

He is a fighter/rogue type.
He is not making it himself, but having it made by some very grateful dwarves who do want to appoint some poor cleric to start creating but do not want to pay for the time, money and xp (them still being dwarves of course).

So I'm figuring what to charge him.

Come and think of it, here's another question that has caught my attention.

Same party, other character.
This character, a goody-good priest wants to have a simple +2 shield for himself but doesn't have the gp's to buy or create one. So, going to the same grateful dwarves he proposes the following: to create 2 or 3 +1 shields for them (using their materials) and then be able to create one shield for himself (again using their materials). A surprised look came upon me when I realised that it would cost him just a few days to create the +1 shields, each worth quite some money in their own right, and he would have the +2 shield for absolutely free (in my low power and low magic world being a rather unique and powerful item ready for song and legend).

Though clever and smart, it just didn't feel right and made for an example to others I am not sure of that I'm happy with.

What's your (and other persons of course) opinion on this?

Regards

Chris

PS thanx for the article, helpful...!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: More...

He is a fighter/rogue type.

So it's not going to be a spell trigger item, but something use-activated. That's always more expensive. (Compare Potion of Bull's Strength, 300gp, with Scroll of Bull's Strength, 150gp.) I'd be quite comfortable charging over 20k for a 3x10mins/day Prot. from Evil item. For a permanent effect, it would ramp up sharply.

Even though he's putting it into a shield, it's more of a wondrous item effect, IMO.

This character, a goody-good priest wants to have a simple +2 shield for himself but doesn't have the gp's to buy or create one. So, going to the same grateful dwarves he proposes the following: to create 2 or 3 +1 shields for them (using their materials) and then be able to create one shield for himself (again using their materials). A surprised look came upon me when I realised that it would cost him just a few days to create the +1 shields, each worth quite some money in their own right, and he would have the +2 shield for absolutely free.

Firstly, a +2 shield costs about 4 times what a +1 shield does, so he'd need to make four for the dwarves to be getting a fair deal.

Secondly, this means the dwarves are shelling out 4000gp worth of material costs. Are they comfortable with that?

Thirdly, he's spending 320XP for that +2 shield. It might not be huge, but it's also not "absolutely free".

And fourthly, it will take him at least eight days to make all those shields. If you interrupt that time with some urgent event, it may all be for nothing...

So you have one easy veto (the dwarves say 'No, thanks'), and one complex veto (Circumstances Intervene) if you don't like the idea.

-Hyp.

 

[plavi]

Thanx

Thanx for you time and advise, handy....

Chris

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Protection From Evil item...

This isn't a bad article to read.

There's that farking article! I've been lookin' for that thing for days!! I knew I had read it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Pricing magic items is an art. As such we have to look at it from many angles to estimate a fair price. Here are a number of reasonable attempts at pricing the item. Consider them all before you decide on a price...

(1a) Protection from Evil is a 1st level spell. That cost 1 x 1 x 2000 gp to make as an item. To make that "slotless", double the price to 4000 gp. On a +1 shield that is 1000 gp (for +1 enchantment) + 4000 gp = 5000 gp total.

(1b) Protection from Evil is a very powerful 1st level spell with a short duration (1 minute/level), as well as high utility in my campaign. As such, if made permenant, it is comparable to 2nd level spells, such as Protection from Arrows. 2 x 3 x 2000 gp = 12000gp. Doubled that is 24000 gp to add onto another magic item. 25000 gp for a +1 Shield of Protection from Evil.
(1c) 5000 is too cheap. 25000 is too expensive. Pick somewhere in between.

(2) Compare with other shield abilities on table 8-7 on page 180 of the DMG. A +2 Deflection bonus alone is ballpark similar in power to a +2 enhancement equivalent (plus other nifty bonuses, albeit mostly only useful against evil). In fact, when I look at the list, I estimate the Protection from Evil is comparable to Fire Resistance, a +3 equivalent enhancement. A +1 Shield of Protection from Evil would be +4 equivalent, for a price of 16000 gp.

(3) According to table 8-40 (p. 242 in the DMG), a +2 Deflection bonus is worth 8000 gp, and a +2 resistance bonus is worth 4000 gp. That's 12000 gp so far. But this works only against evil, so it should be discounted; I will be generous and knock down this price to 9000 gp. The protection from being mind controlled and a little extra resistance to summoned creatures are nice little benefits, too; I will call that 2000 gp. That is 11000 gp total. Doubled for being slotless, it goes to 22000 gp. On top of a +1 Shield, that would be 23000 gp.

All 5 answers, listed above are based on the DMG rules. So the argument "it should be cheap because it is a 1st level spell" is too simplistic.

Personally, I think #2 is the best approach. YMMV.

(You may have noticed I doubled the Protection from Evil for being slotless. Normally one would double the cheapest function of the item, such as the +1 enchancement on the shield. IMO, that is a Bad Idea because it is foreseeable that Magic Vestment will be cast on this shield.)

 

[med stud]

Re: More...

Come and think of it, here's another question that has caught my attention.

Same party, other character.
This character, a goody-good priest wants to have a simple +2 shield for himself but doesn't have the gp's to buy or create one. So, going to the same grateful dwarves he proposes the following: to create 2 or 3 +1 shields for them (using their materials) and then be able to create one shield for himself (again using their materials). A surprised look came upon me when I realised that it would cost him just a few days to create the +1 shields, each worth quite some money in their own right, and he would have the +2 shield for absolutely free (in my low power and low magic world being a rather unique and powerful item ready for song and legend).

Though clever and smart, it just didn't feel right and made for an example to others I am not sure of that I'm happy with.

What's your (and other persons of course) opinion on this?

I think this is in line with different myths and stories from the RL world, where the cleric trades four good shields for one that is better (it's almost like the Viking tale where Loke had cut the hair of Thor's wife, and made a bargain with dwarves to create new hair for her (btw, the same tale which tells how Thor got his hammer)).

Now, if you dont want it, just say that the dwarves doesnt have the required materials for making a +2 shield. The DMG never specifies what materials are needed, but nothing is stopping you from doing it ("to make this shield, you need five perfect scales from a adult or older dragon", for example).

 

[kreynolds]

(You may have noticed I doubled the Protection from Evil for being slotless. Normally one would double the cheapest function of the item, such as the +1 enchancement on the shield. IMO, that is a Bad Idea because it is foreseeable that Magic Vestment will be cast on this shield.)

You don't actually have to worry about this. The shield or weapon is never doubled, no matter how cheap it is. Everything else is on it is. (You might already know this, but just in case...)

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I don't have my books, but I think it could work like a Ring of Invisibility. It's use activated, and lasts indefinetly, (which I think the Invisibility does). But if you attack, (both spells), the effect drops, and requires another action to restart. Even if it was always use activated and has a duration, it woild still be very powerful.

Or you could just come up with an item that prevents mind influencing powers.

Either way I don't see it as unbalancing, but I run a standard magic game, so for yours it may be too much.