Providing Dragons With Classes?
- Thread starter SHARK
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sword-dancer
Explorer
SHARK
Had you ever played Rifts or Palladium
Here is piece
700 years ago shalandriel the Paladin of darkness, chosen war constable of Zardos High Lord of Darkness attacked the Lands of Tymbrim.
Under the Nations who formed the alliance of the .... Was the Kingdom of Sharl, his King Detemer was a good ruler, just, goodadministrator, diplomat and thoughtful.
What few know was that his teens Detemer was a high respected friend of Xyaubnomeir, a dragon of the Long Peak.
As the forces of the darkness attacked his Neighbors
He called his people to war and attacked the invading forces, to hold them until the full weigth of Alliance could made a difference.
Shalandriel, seeing what Detemer did, and knowing the Alliances warhosts were hurrying at him, send a part of his forces against Sharl itself, to invade it or destroy it.
Detemer had no choice, he took a part of his army to stop the invading force, and send Message to Xyaubnomeir.
He met them in the valley of ash(as it is now known) fighting 3 days before the dark host cornered him and wears him down.
Xyaubnomeir fought against 3 dark Highmages in the Long Peak, playing a deadly game of hunting the hunters.
After getting the Message he goes for the direct attack, maybe because Mages were too surprised, he shred them to pieces.
Then he fly to help his friend, as he arrived at noon he found the army cornered and ready for the final kill.
And Detemer lying deadly wounded on the field.
At sundown the valley had the name it is now known and the dark forces wasn`t any more.
And Xyaubnomeir come to his friend to bid him farewell and excuse his lateness.
Detemer knowing most who are able to rule of his people are dead asked for a last favor from his friend.
"Rule my people."
They spoke a long time and at last Xyaubnomeir promised he would try.
And since then Xyaubnomeir had been regent of Sharl, ruling the land(or say better training and pointing the administrators), defending it in war, declaring laws, negotiate with diplomats and try to better the life of all sharlians.
The sharlians know see the RegentDragon as their rightful and honored ruler, are very loyal to him.
Xyaubnomeir search for an heir to the throne because he found the burden of Regency cumbersome.
The weight of his duties is heavy on him.
Had you ever played Rifts or Palladium
Here is piece
700 years ago shalandriel the Paladin of darkness, chosen war constable of Zardos High Lord of Darkness attacked the Lands of Tymbrim.
Under the Nations who formed the alliance of the .... Was the Kingdom of Sharl, his King Detemer was a good ruler, just, goodadministrator, diplomat and thoughtful.
What few know was that his teens Detemer was a high respected friend of Xyaubnomeir, a dragon of the Long Peak.
As the forces of the darkness attacked his Neighbors
He called his people to war and attacked the invading forces, to hold them until the full weigth of Alliance could made a difference.
Shalandriel, seeing what Detemer did, and knowing the Alliances warhosts were hurrying at him, send a part of his forces against Sharl itself, to invade it or destroy it.
Detemer had no choice, he took a part of his army to stop the invading force, and send Message to Xyaubnomeir.
He met them in the valley of ash(as it is now known) fighting 3 days before the dark host cornered him and wears him down.
Xyaubnomeir fought against 3 dark Highmages in the Long Peak, playing a deadly game of hunting the hunters.
After getting the Message he goes for the direct attack, maybe because Mages were too surprised, he shred them to pieces.
Then he fly to help his friend, as he arrived at noon he found the army cornered and ready for the final kill.
And Detemer lying deadly wounded on the field.
At sundown the valley had the name it is now known and the dark forces wasn`t any more.
And Xyaubnomeir come to his friend to bid him farewell and excuse his lateness.
Detemer knowing most who are able to rule of his people are dead asked for a last favor from his friend.
"Rule my people."
They spoke a long time and at last Xyaubnomeir promised he would try.
And since then Xyaubnomeir had been regent of Sharl, ruling the land(or say better training and pointing the administrators), defending it in war, declaring laws, negotiate with diplomats and try to better the life of all sharlians.
The sharlians know see the RegentDragon as their rightful and honored ruler, are very loyal to him.
Xyaubnomeir search for an heir to the throne because he found the burden of Regency cumbersome.
The weight of his duties is heavy on him.
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Bitte, wie heiss Sie?
Interesting Sword! How is evrything there in Germany? I was wondering--I have a friend over there, I think he's stationed in Frankfurt. He says the locals are *very* friendly! Sometimes while watching the news, or reading the newspapers, it doesn't always seem like folks over there really like us. What part of Germany do you live in again? Danke meine freunden!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Bitte, wie heiss Sie?
Interesting Sword! How is evrything there in Germany? I was wondering--I have a friend over there, I think he's stationed in Frankfurt. He says the locals are *very* friendly! Sometimes while watching the news, or reading the newspapers, it doesn't always seem like folks over there really like us. What part of Germany do you live in again? Danke meine freunden!Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
From a game mechanics viewpoint, I don't see the problem. I've given the odd dragon a level or two in something, to represent a dedicated hobbyist. Dragon Bards have a certain coolness factor.
However, I think that (in a conventional D&D setting), most dragons wouldn't bother. After all:
1) They're too proud, vain and lazy.
After all, taking a level of Fighter implies spending a lot of time training that could've been spent partying, and it also implies that you *needed* training. Doesn't strike me as "dragon" thinking on any level.
2) They can make someone else do stuff they can't.
IMC, most dragons learn spells like Charm Monster, Lesser Planar Ally and even Gate. If they don't possess a specialized ability, they don't train a hundred years to learn it - they just get an underling to take care of it.
That said, I *do* ramp up dragons. I give them 25-36 point attribute buy, sometimes even more. Dragons that want a lot of personal power tend to learn Craft Wondrous Item, sire halfbreeds, and make alliances of various sorts.
However, I think that (in a conventional D&D setting), most dragons wouldn't bother. After all:
1) They're too proud, vain and lazy.
After all, taking a level of Fighter implies spending a lot of time training that could've been spent partying, and it also implies that you *needed* training. Doesn't strike me as "dragon" thinking on any level.
2) They can make someone else do stuff they can't.
IMC, most dragons learn spells like Charm Monster, Lesser Planar Ally and even Gate. If they don't possess a specialized ability, they don't train a hundred years to learn it - they just get an underling to take care of it.
That said, I *do* ramp up dragons. I give them 25-36 point attribute buy, sometimes even more. Dragons that want a lot of personal power tend to learn Craft Wondrous Item, sire halfbreeds, and make alliances of various sorts.
jasper
Rotten DM
1. halflings are small tidbits. Remember to extend your pinky when eating them.
2. Sucking the goo out the half-orc is vugar. Chew them slowly.
3. Always place the hard shells of fighters To your left when done.
4. Gulping mages is rude. Roll them around your mouth and savor the flavor.
5. Total destorying a town is pompous. Crush only selected bits.
6.Please and thank you are proper courteous if the town people ask you do you want another maiden.
How that for class
2. Sucking the goo out the half-orc is vugar. Chew them slowly.
3. Always place the hard shells of fighters To your left when done.
4. Gulping mages is rude. Roll them around your mouth and savor the flavor.
5. Total destorying a town is pompous. Crush only selected bits.
6.Please and thank you are proper courteous if the town people ask you do you want another maiden.
How that for class
So far, I've only used dragons 'as is', but I can certainly see the logic in allowing them to gain levels.
I do think it would depend A LOT on campaign flavour. I mean, how many epic level characters would it take to keep 20th level/Great Wyrm (Challenge Rating 40-something) dragons from taking over the world (or galaxy as the dragonstar case may be)?
If your campaign features lots of high level heroes, classed dragons would be well suited.
If not, I'd think 'as is' dragons would be better suited, unless you want the dragons to be ruling empires & lesser mortals striving to keep out of their battles.
I do think it would depend A LOT on campaign flavour. I mean, how many epic level characters would it take to keep 20th level/Great Wyrm (Challenge Rating 40-something) dragons from taking over the world (or galaxy as the dragonstar case may be)?
If your campaign features lots of high level heroes, classed dragons would be well suited.
If not, I'd think 'as is' dragons would be better suited, unless you want the dragons to be ruling empires & lesser mortals striving to keep out of their battles.
Rashak Mani
First Post
Great jasper !! Why shouldnt Dragons have Class ?! What do you do if the so called Maiden offered isnt ... hmmm.. well... intact ? What does the good manners book say ?
As for flattening the city... the Dragon forgets about the Church Spire and Impales himself on the Tower... >
Back to GIANTS... someone mentioned that the Giants dont make as much of a threat as their CR would indicate... I agree completly... they are more like specially big orcs... treat their CRs as at least -2 or -3 to balance it for your regular group of PCs. Their Will save is pathetic and groups with Spellcasters will stop 'em very fast. I made a Huge Chain spike carrying Hill Giant... one Hold Monster and he was a goner... change Feats too... I changed basic feats to Iron Will or Exotic Wpn...
As for flattening the city... the Dragon forgets about the Church Spire and Impales himself on the Tower... >
Back to GIANTS... someone mentioned that the Giants dont make as much of a threat as their CR would indicate... I agree completly... they are more like specially big orcs... treat their CRs as at least -2 or -3 to balance it for your regular group of PCs. Their Will save is pathetic and groups with Spellcasters will stop 'em very fast. I made a Huge Chain spike carrying Hill Giant... one Hold Monster and he was a goner... change Feats too... I changed basic feats to Iron Will or Exotic Wpn...
Voadam
Legend
For an example of a dragon with class levels check out the WotC site forgotten realms section. They have a dragon with sorcerer levels, which stack with his innate sorcerer levels from being a dragon.
Super-intelligent creatures that live for centuries, it makes sense that they would pick up levels.
Super-intelligent creatures that live for centuries, it makes sense that they would pick up levels.
jollyninja
First Post
i usually just throw in extra dragon HD if i want to mess with the dragons at all, they are better in my opinion then any class out there.
as for shark's uber dragon: What is the EL of an entire army? i would imagine it would be high enough to grant the dragon some xp. probably a few individuals within the army would as well. as he gains wizard levels he could do some plane hopping in order to find worthy opponents. also if i were running the campaign, i would allow him to lower his effective level for purposes of gaining some xp by limiting himself to using his fledgling wizard power. and then there is roleplaying xp.
also as far as the wizards go, the SR of the dragon would be high enough that any smart wizard would think long and hard before chancing such an altercation. also imagine what such a creature could dangle in front of such a wizards cabal as far as forgotten knowledge and magical lore goes. sure there would be some dissenters but quickly finding them and making examples of them would put enough fear in the others to keep them in line.
as for shark's uber dragon: What is the EL of an entire army? i would imagine it would be high enough to grant the dragon some xp. probably a few individuals within the army would as well. as he gains wizard levels he could do some plane hopping in order to find worthy opponents. also if i were running the campaign, i would allow him to lower his effective level for purposes of gaining some xp by limiting himself to using his fledgling wizard power. and then there is roleplaying xp.
also as far as the wizards go, the SR of the dragon would be high enough that any smart wizard would think long and hard before chancing such an altercation. also imagine what such a creature could dangle in front of such a wizards cabal as far as forgotten knowledge and magical lore goes. sure there would be some dissenters but quickly finding them and making examples of them would put enough fear in the others to keep them in line.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Actually, defeating an entire army (probably composed of creatures whose level is individually far below the dragon's) would merit only an ad hoc XP award according to the tables in the DMG.
As for dragons with levels: I really don't bother. When I do, I tend to add on a very few levels, with the exception of unique beasties like Daurgothoth. I actually have a problem adding levels to "boss monsters" like fiends and dragons for a simple reason. IMHO, PCs are supposed to be special, heroic, unique individuals; their ability to achieve high levels in character classes is due to, and evidence of, this heroism and uniqueness. Thus, to add levels on to monsters that are already powerful enough to pose a challenge to mighty heroes (giants, older dragons, etc.), cheapens the achievement that those heroes have made in striving and surviving for long enough to reach high levels. If I gave class levels to dragons simply on the basis that anything intelligent and long-lived should have them, then every single dragon, lich, vampire, fiend, and elf IMC would be vastly beyond the power of the PCs to interact with, much less defeat. But that's just IMHO...
As for dragons with levels: I really don't bother. When I do, I tend to add on a very few levels, with the exception of unique beasties like Daurgothoth. I actually have a problem adding levels to "boss monsters" like fiends and dragons for a simple reason. IMHO, PCs are supposed to be special, heroic, unique individuals; their ability to achieve high levels in character classes is due to, and evidence of, this heroism and uniqueness. Thus, to add levels on to monsters that are already powerful enough to pose a challenge to mighty heroes (giants, older dragons, etc.), cheapens the achievement that those heroes have made in striving and surviving for long enough to reach high levels. If I gave class levels to dragons simply on the basis that anything intelligent and long-lived should have them, then every single dragon, lich, vampire, fiend, and elf IMC would be vastly beyond the power of the PCs to interact with, much less defeat. But that's just IMHO...
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