PRPG Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Summoner and Witch

[Mark Chance]

Have you looked at the Pathfinder Summon Monster lists? Many creatures come in a full level earlier than they did in 3.5. It's a significant change.

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that.

I did, however, notice this generalization:

Summoned monsters are generally of a CR significantly below the party level, fighting against monsters equal to or higher CR than the party....

That's not true in my games. PCs in my games generally fight against groups of monsters with individual CRs lower than that of than the party. For example, five CR 1/2 monsters (EL 3) against four 3rd-level PCs.

 

[Zurai]

Have you looked at the Pathfinder Summon Monster lists? Many creatures come in a full level earlier than they did in 3.5. It's a significant change.

Ken

Yep, I'm aware of that, but like I said, the monsters on the lists are still significantly weaker (minimum 4 CR if your opponent is a CR+2 from party level) than what it's going to be fighting. After looking through my SM6 (and 1d3 SM5/1d4+1 SM4) options, I've pretty much decided that summoned monsters are mostly going to be flank buddies, distractions, and mobile spell-like abilities (hello, lillend azata). I'm not saying the summoning is useless just that after the first few levels, their direct combat application isn't really "summon a whole lot of monsters and watch them solo the encounter".

I'll admit that the combination of summoner + 2 HD Eidolon + SM1 at level 1 is likely too strong. I'm also of the opinion that Eidolons have waaaaaaay too much AC, and have raised that concern in the playtest boards (and Jason has responded that he's looking into the AC; he's also looking into how magic items should interact with Eidolons). At higher levels, though, I think it evens out and possibly even shifts down to perfectly level-appropriate (as opposed to any of the full casters, who start out weak compared to a fighter and quickly ramp up to "that was a CR+3 encounter?"), at least if you don't try to break the Eidolon. I'm hoping the level 12 game I'm playing will shed more light on that, but it's a PbP so we may not get enough time to do more than an encounter or two.

That's not true in my games. PCs in my games generally fight against groups of monsters with individual CRs lower than that of than the party. For example, five CR 1/2 monsters (EL 3) against four 3rd-level PCs.

Sorry, I'm generalizing from Paizo's published modules and my own games, all of which tend to have monsters tougher than the party in most encounters. Individual DMs vary, of course.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I guess 'guy with permanent pet who is better than him' doesn't exactly scream 'summoner' to me.

Actually, it has a whiff of Jekyll and Hyde, or Banner and Hulk, except that the alter ego (or, rather, id) actually gets to hang around in physical form to watch the havoc.

And maybe cast a few buffs on him.

 

[GlassJaw]

Actually, it has a whiff of Jekyll and Hyde, or Banner and Hulk, except that the alter ego (or, rather, id) actually gets to hang around in physical form to watch the havoc.

 

[Starbuck_II]

The summon monster abilities -- which I've already stated I'd just as soon see disappear, including the spells in his spell list -- aren't as hot as most people are making them out to be. Summoned monsters are generally of a CR significantly below the party level, fighting against monsters equal to or higher CR than the party, except in the first few levels when there isn't that much range of CR yet. SM6, which the Summoner gets at 11th level, summons at best a single celestial dire tiger, which is CR 9, and probably not as good a choice as a CR 7 huge air elemental in many situations. At 11th level, the Summoner is likely to be fighting monsters in the CR 13-15 range like iron golems, adult dragons, and fairly powerful outsiders. Dire tigers have jack squat against anything that flies or anything that has DR 10+, and air elementals have significantly less offense than the tigers do. <I use SM6 as an example because the Summoner I'm playtesting is level 12, so I've recently looked through that list>

I don't think anyone is saying summons are all tanks or DPSers.

The giant spiders webs foes. The Giant frog eats them. The Dretch causes fear and stinking clouds. Mephits have spells (depends on type) as does Bralani.

For SM 6th:
Shadow Demon has many spells, incorporeal, etc (but can't use in sunlight).
Lliend is another spellcaster.
Succubus can dominate/Charm enemies. Heck, they can grant you a +2 to any stat (although you need high Will save so no suggestions).

 

[Alzrius]

I'm surprised they didn't go with the method wherein the Summoner has to spend actions to control his eidolon, sort of like the 4e Ranger does with his animal companion. The eidolon could take basic actions on its own, like opportunity attacks, making it a decent bodyguard if nothing else, but if you want to attack with it, you have to control it directly.

That was my initial reaction to the idea of limiting the eidolon also. For what it's worth, this was the direction taken with the dragonrider base class from OtherWorld Creations.

 

[Xendria]

Has anyone who is saying the Eidolon is greater than a PC playtested it, or just stared at the pages. Cause our Fighter did way better than the Eidolon, and the Paladin was on par with it against non-undead/evil opponents. I'm really not seeing how it is so broken.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Has anyone who is saying the Eidolon is greater than a PC playtested it, or just stared at the pages. Cause our Fighter did way better than the Eidolon, and the Paladin was on par with it against non-undead/evil opponents. I'm really not seeing how it is so broken.

I'm undecided, but how was it built?
Did it have armor on? Did it go Bipedal, snake, or Quadrapedal?
Did it have spells? Details because the thing is very versatile.

 

[Xendria]

Bipedal with an extra set of legs added on. Armor, Greatsword, Bullrush feats. I don't have the character on me, left it at my DM's, but it was well made. I mean I've seen builds with AC's over 40 but that's a waste of points in my opinion. Either way the fighter outshined the Eidolon on multiple occasions and also was more adaptable in combat, being semi skilled with a bow aswell (WF: Longbow, WS: Longbow, FS).

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I guess my main question

Is, if the summoner gets a pet, why doesn't the bard? The summoner minus his eidolon is easily as powerful as the bard.

I suggest that the Bard class be revised to have a pet .

It can be a Warrior with the same class level as the Bard. We'll call this pet his 'Friend'. Surely without all those fighter bonus feats, he won't outshine the fighter. He'll just be a guy in armor swinging a sword.

Would that be imbalanced?

Ken