PRPG Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Summoner and Witch

[Zurai]

And you know what else Yuna and Rydia had? Actually powerful spellcasting at their disposal. Yuna was a competent white mage, and Rydia had white and black magic. All the Eidonloneer has is his pet, and less spells known than a sorcerer. If a sorcerer can cast know more spells and cast more often than the Eidoloneer, than the eidoloneer isn't much of a spell caster.

Rydia actually doesn't get both white magic and summons at the same time (she has white magic and black magic as a child and black magic and summons as an adult). And everyone in FF10 is a competent white mage, because it's a classless system and anyone can go anywhere on the sphere grid; IIRC, only Yuna even has any unique abilities, and that's Summoning.

As for magic, the Summoner is a competent caster. They get save-or-dies/sucks at every spell level and most of the best buffing spells (even extending into the cleric and druid lists). They don't get as many as a Sorcerer, no. But they do quite adequately mirror a Final Fantasy-style Summoner (far better than anything else in the history of the game has). In Final Fantasy terms, they're a combination of red mages and summoners -- slower spellcasting progression with access to a limited list of both white and black magic, moderate combat prowess, and access to summoning.

(I've noted elsewhere, but they're also actually a pretty solid base to make a Bleach-style Shinigami out of, for any Anime fans out there)

Anyway, a FF-style Summoner is something that has been missing from the game. An ISpamMonsterser is something that can be adequately (if not exceptionally) done just from the SRD with the variant conjurer. For definitions terms, FF-style Summoners are not ISpamMonstersers, because they don't summon more than one entity at a time (multi-summons like Knights of the Round, etc, aside; those are obviously still one "entity" being summoned) and that entity is considerably more powerful than the summoner. An ISpamMonsterser happily fills the battlefield with summoned celestial leopards, each of whom is significantly weaker than the ISpamMonsterser. They're two totally different characters to play.

Anyway, as it stands I actually think the nerf to the SLA went too far, if the SLA is going to remain in the class. I favor one or the other of the changes, but not both -- I'd rather the standard action, minutes/level, one-at-a-time summon, but a full-round action, rounds/level, spammable summon wouldn't make me tear my hair out. I just feel that the Summoner is a powerful enough class without the SLAs and without the summon spells on its spell list, and that those options detract from the intended point of the class. I'm a power gamer; if those options remain, I'm not going to bitch and moan. I just think the class can do without them, is all.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Rydia actually doesn't get both white magic and summons at the same time (she has white magic and black magic as a child and black magic and summons as an adult).

Rydia had a chocobo summon as a child as well as black and white magic. I remember using it to kill that octopus.

 

[Zurai]

Rydia had a chocobo summon as a child as well as black and white magic. I remember using it to kill that octopus.

Wow, it's been so long since I've played FF4 that I'd forgotten. She also summoned Titan at the start of the game. Sorry, statement withdrawn. Although child-Rydia is an even better analogue of the Summoner class in that case, because she hasn't lost her white magic yet but also doesn't get all the black magic either (in particular, she won't cast Fire until a story even later).

 

[Alzrius]

Wow, it's been so long since I've played FF4 that I'd forgotten. She also summoned Titan at the start of the game. Sorry, statement withdrawn. Although child-Rydia is an even better analogue of the Summoner class in that case, because she hasn't lost her white magic yet but also doesn't get all the black magic either (in particular, she won't cast Fire until a story even later).

Actually, she gets Fire while still a child, a little after joining your party. After Rosa has been healed, the group journeys to Mt. Hobs, where Rydia learns Fire to melt the ice blocking their path.

 

[Clifford]

Ok back to the subject at hand. Summoners have a powerfully ally, True, the main issue being the fact is that its nearly as good as another character. That said druids animal companions also Become stronger Though not to a degree that the Edilon dose. I do agree that summoners Shouldent have Both a creature that is general superior to anything they can summon with a summon monster spell And summon monster spells also, I know that has something to do with their nitch. However, Maybe more abilitys that expand upon the Summoners connection to his Edilon. Some Higher spells cast at lower levels are ok but summon monster 9 at level six is Pretty powerful. Summoning a creature almost on par with their primary class feature.

 

[Xendria]

Yeah, that summon monster IX is at 6th level. But 6th level for them is at level 16.

On the Eidolon. It is not as powerful as another player. Maybe a player who doesn't know how to play his class, or a player who doesn't know how to play the game period. I have had 2 sessions of play testing this and have not had one single issue where the Eidolon has out shined a player. It's ok that the Eidolon is more powerful than a druid's animal companion because Summoners don't get offensive spells or wildshape. Until you've actually playtested the class, don't judge how powerful it is against other players.

 

[Scott DeWar]

for those who have play tested it, would the need to juice up the spelol casting be an ok thing? I know it was nurfed, but if the spell casting is worse then a scorcerer, where the scorcerer also get aa bloodling power set, that can maybe even things out?

If it seems as though I am ignoring the people how are exociseing caution, it is only because i am only reminded that this is a new class that is to be brough on par with the other core classes (rewporked via Pathfinder) and I see it as fair to keep it strong. I believe the fighter was compared to it as the one out shining it (the pokeman pet) as there are many many feats that they can take to buff up their combat, where the Eidalon gets nada.

 

[Xendria]

I think they should scrap the summon monster SLA or remove summon monster from their spell list, because now its just redundant. I don't they need more arcane spells either. Someone said earlier in this thread they need more utility abilities, and I totally agree. Abilities to unsummon other peoples creatures would be great, and still keep in flavor with the class.

 

[Sylrae]

I think they should scrap the summon monster SLA or remove summon monster from their spell list, because now its just redundant. I don't they need more arcane spells either. Someone said earlier in this thread they need more utility abilities, and I totally agree. Abilities to unsummon other peoples creatures would be great, and still keep in flavor with the class.

They could also use some/more mobility/escape spells/abilities. But yeah, the Summon SLA isnt really useful anymore.

Rydia actually doesn't get both white magic and summons at the same time (she has white magic and black magic as a child and black magic and summons as an adult). And everyone in FF10 is a competent white mage, because it's a classless system and anyone can go anywhere on the sphere grid; IIRC, only Yuna even has any unique abilities, and that's Summoning.

As for magic, the Summoner is a competent caster. They get save-or-dies/sucks at every spell level and most of the best buffing spells (even extending into the cleric and druid lists). They don't get as many as a Sorcerer, no. But they do quite adequately mirror a Final Fantasy-style Summoner (far better than anything else in the history of the game has). In Final Fantasy terms, they're a combination of red mages and summoners -- slower spellcasting progression with access to a limited list of both white and black magic, moderate combat prowess, and access to summoning.

(I've noted elsewhere, but they're also actually a pretty solid base to make a Bleach-style Shinigami out of, for any Anime fans out there)

Anyway, a FF-style Summoner is something that has been missing from the game. An ISpamMonsterser is something that can be adequately (if not exceptionally) done just from the SRD with the variant conjurer. For definitions terms, FF-style Summoners are not ISpamMonstersers, because they don't summon more than one entity at a time (multi-summons like Knights of the Round, etc, aside; those are obviously still one "entity" being summoned) and that entity is considerably more powerful than the summoner. An ISpamMonsterser happily fills the battlefield with summoned celestial leopards, each of whom is significantly weaker than the ISpamMonsterser. They're two totally different characters to play.

Anyway, as it stands I actually think the nerf to the SLA went too far, if the SLA is going to remain in the class. I favor one or the other of the changes, but not both -- I'd rather the standard action, minutes/level, one-at-a-time summon, but a full-round action, rounds/level, spammable summon wouldn't make me tear my hair out. I just feel that the Summoner is a powerful enough class without the SLAs and without the summon spells on its spell list, and that those options detract from the intended point of the class. I'm a power gamer; if those options remain, I'm not going to bitch and moan. I just think the class can do without them, is all.

Wow, it's been so long since I've played FF4 that I'd forgotten. She also summoned Titan at the start of the game. Sorry, statement withdrawn. Although child-Rydia is an even better analogue of the Summoner class in that case, because she hasn't lost her white magic yet but also doesn't get all the black magic either (in particular, she won't cast Fire until a story even later).

Yes FF Summoners summon one thing at a time. The reason we said he isn't a competent summoner now, is he effectively is only a summoner of the eidolon. He cant summon different eidolons depending on situation. And his 'spam monsters' standard summoning isnt good.

Ok back to the subject at hand. Summoners have a powerfully ally, True, the main issue being the fact is that its nearly as good as another character. That said druids animal companions also Become stronger Though not to a degree that the Edilon dose. I do agree that summoners Shouldent have Both a creature that is general superior to anything they can summon with a summon monster spell And summon monster spells also, I know that has something to do with their nitch. However, Maybe more abilitys that expand upon the Summoners connection to his Edilon. Some Higher spells cast at lower levels are ok but summon monster 9 at level six is Pretty powerful. Summoning a creature almost on par with their primary class feature.

True. They won't stay long though. Not anymore. (Though by the time they get Summon 9 they stay for a pretty long time).

 

[Chronologist]

I have a suggestion. I know the customization of the Eidolon is cool and all, but it's also very complicated for beginner players.

Why not change it so that it's like the Witch Hexes? One special ability from column A at every level from 1-7, one special ability from column B at every level from 8-15, one special ability from column C at every level from level 16-20.