Psion & picking energy type of attack

[Sir ThornCrest]

I like the idea that a Psion can change energy types..

That same ability costs a feat for a sorcerer or Wizard. My Cerebramancer is a Psion Keneticist, and general Wizard. I dont care for the specialized route with Wizards, loosing a whole school of magic is not worth the meager benefit given for doing so.

With his Psion powers he blows the crap outa things, enemy's what ever, with his cone energy attack or his in line energy attack or his more selective energy missile, so I have many shapes sizes of my energy based attacks coupled with the ability to being able to select energy I got something for everyone!

And with mage spells I use them for movement, inviso, fly, utility etc

Taking the energy choice away would really hamper this pc...


Thorncrest

 

[Thanee]

The main advantage Psions have is that they tend to have either 2 or 4 of their highest level powers available at any given time whereas Sorcerers have 1 or 2 of their highest level spell available.

Plus augmentable lower level powers, yeah.

I had posted a comparison between spells known and powers known once, which was a bit more meaningful than the table you put up (tho, simply dropping the 0th level spells is at least somewhat reasonable as an approximation), but not sure, if I can find that anymore.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Plus augmentable lower level powers, yeah.

I had posted a comparison between spells known and powers known once, which was a bit more meaningful than the table you put up (tho, simply dropping the 0th level spells is at least somewhat reasonable as an approximation), but not sure, if I can find that anymore.

You mean a comparison of levels of spells and powers?

Yes, that is meaningful. For example, at 5th level it becomes (assuming the psion always takes the highest level power available which at least for my psion, I do not always do):

Sorc: 6 4 2
Psion: 0 5 4 2

Then at 6th:

Sorc: 7 4 2 1
Psion: 0 5 4 4

Then at 7th:

Sorc: 7 5 3 2
Psion: 0 5 4 4 2

Then at 15th:

Sorc: 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2
Psion: 0 5 4 4 4 4 3 3 1

Then at 20th:

Sorc: 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3
Psion: 0 5 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 6

So yes I agree with you, Sorcerers have more spells, Psions have more higher level powers. But, Sorcerers can still cast more spells in a day (once he gets to 4th level), something which is critical at low to mid levels (with a 20 CHA at 20th level, that would be 8 first, 7 second through fifth, and 6 sixth through ninth which if you correlate to PP, would be 8 + 21 + 35 + 49 + 63 + 66 + 78 + 90 + 102 = 512, 20th level psion with 20 INT would have 393 PP). It sounds balanced.


I knew there was a reason I took a Psion for this campaign.

 

[Thanee]

It sounds balanced.

Yep, that is roughly balanced in my opinion, too, more spells per day, less spells known, that's a fairly reasonable trade off; but once you add in the bonus feats, faster power progression (aquisition of new power levels), no components, higher flexibility (mostly the ability to manifest much more high level powers in a day), and so on, I feel the balance becomes somewhat lacking.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Yep, that is roughly balanced in my opinion, too, more spells per day, less spells known, that's a fairly reasonable trade off; but once you add in the bonus feats, faster power progression (aquisition of new power levels), no components, higher flexibility (mostly the ability to manifest much more high level powers in a day), and so on, I feel the balance becomes somewhat lacking.

Perhaps, but a single Globe of Invulnerability (or Lesser Globe of Invulnerability) will stop many psions in their tracks (assuming magic and psionics similar). There just are not that many good higher level offensive psionic powers (there are some). Psions can not get Globes of Invulnerability to totally protect them across the board from many lower level spells. Sorcerers can get it.

Psions also lack illusions which does not sound like much, but it is very important to low to mid level Sorcerers (Mirror Image, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility) for survival. Psions also get Fly equivalents at higher levels (at level 7 for Nomads, at level 11 for most other psions), so the Sorcerer gets Fly as a 3rd level spell and most psions get it as a 6th level power.

Fly / Greater Invisibility / Nondetection is a pretty strong combo that psions are hard pressed to match.

When you do a comparison, it is not just spell/power levels. It is also what you can do with those spells and powers.

No doubt about it. Psions are about as powerful as Sorcerers. But, I am not convinced that they are significantly more powerful than Sorcerers. My experience so far (and granted, I only have a 3rd level Psion) is that it is real easy to run out of PP in a single fight.

 

[Thanee]

When you do a comparison, it is not just spell/power levels. It is also what you can do with those spells and powers.

Of course, and that's pretty equal overall. There are, after all, quite a few powers, which are better than their respective spell cousins (Dominate for example).

But, I am not convinced that they are significantly more powerful than Sorcerers.

I am.

My experience so far (and granted, I only have a 3rd level Psion) is that it is real easy to run out of PP in a single fight.

Absolutely, so is a Sorcerer with spells at that level (which are only 0th and 1st level spells, by the way, one level higher, and the Sorcerer gains access to one 2nd level spell, when the Psion knows what... 6 (including decently augmentable ones)?). At higher levels the differences become bigger, when the Psion's flexibility kicks in. And the lower "powers per day" is the cost to pay for the better "powers known" progression and probably even a little more, but it certainly does not balance all of what Psions get in addition.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Absolutely, so is a Sorcerer with spells at that level (which are only 0th and 1st level spells, by the way, one level higher, and the Sorcerer gains access to one 2nd level spell, when the Psion knows what... 6 (including decently augmentable ones)?). At higher levels the differences become bigger, when the Psion's flexibility kicks in. And the lower "powers per day" is the cost to pay for the better "powers known" progression and probably even a little more, but it certainly does not balance all of what Psions get in addition.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Psions have disciplines. That means that like Specialized Wizards, there are areas of psionics that they either cannot get, or have difficulty getting (using up a precious feat to acquire a single power).

Not every Psion can fire off (worthwhile) area affect energy powers like every Sorcerer can easily acquire Fireball or Lightning Bolt, without the Psion using a feat.

Not every Psion can create Astra Constructs like every Sorcerer can easily acquire Summon Monster X spells, without the Psion using a feat.

The percentage of Psion powers that are close range or shorter is much greater than that of arcane spell casters. This disadvantage is bigger than it seems when your psion has to get in close and personal with most any offensive power that he wants to manifest. And many of the medium or longer spells are discipline specific (e.g. kineticist).

Sorcerers get a familiar at first level which is the equivalent of the Psion taking a Psicrstal with their first level feat. Granted, the Psion gets the choice of a psicrystal or not, but out of the 5 additional feats at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, one of these is approximated by the Sorcerers familiar which not only gives the Sorcerer the Alertness feat, it gives him some other benefits as well (and it takes forever to get to the 10th, 15th, and 20th level feats anyway).

Sorcerers can swap out less useful low level spells at later levels. So, if Monster Summoning I is no longer useful, the Sorcerer can replace it. Psions can only do this by coughing up XP and taking the Psychic Reformation power, but it costs them one of their precious powers and XP to do something that Sorcerers get for free.

Sorcerers can go into prestige classes and the only thing they lose is some abilities of their familiar. If psions go into a prestige class, they will lose feats to do so (and abilities of a psicrystal if they have one). Not only that, every single psionic PrC forces a psion to lose one or more manifesting levels to advance in the PrC. There are arcane PrCs that do not require that of a Sorcerer. At higher level, if both the Psion and Sorcerers take PrCs, then either the Sorcerer will catch up with number of spells because the Psion will lose manifesting levels, or if the Psion does not take a PrC, the Sorcerer will gain extra abilities that the Psion does not.

Most psions cannot fly (at least until 11th level). So in order to gain a fairly low level bread and butter spell ability, a psion has to use a high level power.

No psion can go invisible. They can sort of emulate it with Cloud Mind and Mass Cloud Mind, but not really.

When it comes to defensive abilities, psions win out in AC (if they take a lot of defensive powers) and temporary hit points at low level (if they take Vigor). Sorcerers win out defensively in several "tend to not get hit at all" areas: Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Globe of Invulnerability. Quite frankly, most Sorcerers can attack at range and still be protected better than most Psions can.

And, there are more spell options and more feat options for Sorcerers than there are psions. Psions are mostly limited to what is found in the Expanded Psionic Handbook (if you just use WotC material) whereas Sorcerers have a LOT of other options from many sourcebooks.

And that's the real nuts and bolts of it. Psions have a few higher level powers at the same level and a few really good powers that allow them to augment them beyond the abilities of Sorcerers, but Sorcerers have more offensive and defensive options along with more spells per day and better range for most of their offensive spells. The 0th level spells that Sorcerers have also make them more versatile than Psions outside of combat.

On the other hand, Psions tend to get more skills than Sorcerers.

It really is more balanced than "more high level powers at the same level" and "a few more powers" implies.