Psion vs. magic and Enhance Spell (Epic Feat)

Belzbet

First Post
As most familiar with psionic characters know one of the biggest mechanical differences between psion casting and wizard/sorc/druid/etc. casting is that psions can manifest powers at a higher Caster Level than the power originally allows if they increase the amount of power points spent to manifest it (essentially that means they must make the power a higher level power, to do 5d6 damage with energy ray you must use an extra 4 more PP, for a total of 5 PP, the normal amount of PP needed to manifest a 3rd level power).

Wizards instead cast spells at a fixed CL equal to their CL (usually).

This normally doesnt seem to be a problem until after 20 CL (where wizards damage spells are usually capped at doing 20dX and psions can increase their damage die to their manifester level (or any other variable based on ML that is usually capped for other spellcasters). There is an epic feat that cures this: Enhance spell. But you need to keep on taking the feat every 10CL or so if you want to do your CL in damage die.

My question is this: Would it be a good idea to give regular casters enhance spell as a bonus feat (on top of any other bonus feats they may gain) every 10 levels above 20th (so for every 10 levels of wizard/druid/cleric/maybe a spellcasting PrC/ you take above 20th you gain one count of enhance spell; it seems that in a high level epic game a psion may be a better choice since you dont have to sink so many feats into enhance spell).

Are there other factors that we should take into consideration (about psionic vs magic) before allowing non-psionic casters this privilege?
 
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As most familiar with psionic characters know one of the biggest mechanical differences between psion casting and wizard/sorc/druid/etc. casting is that psions can manifest powers at a higher Caster Level than the power originally allows if they increase the amount of power points spent to manifest it (essentially that means they must make the power a higher level power, to do 5d6 damage with energy ray you must use an extra 4 more PP, for a total of 5 PP, the normal amount of PP needed to manifest a 3rd level power).

Wizards instead cast spells at a fixed CL equal to their CL (usually).

This normally doesnt seem to be a problem until after 20 CL (where wizards damage spells are usually capped at doing 20dX and psions can increase their damage die to their manifester level (or any other variable based on ML that is usually capped for other spellcasters). There is an epic feat that cures this: Enhance spell. But you need to keep on taking the feat every 10CL or so if you want to do your CL in damage die.

My question is this: Would it be a good idea to give regular casters enhance spell as a bonus feat (on top of any other bonus feats they may gain) every 10 levels above 20th (so for every 10 levels of wizard/druid/cleric/maybe a spellcasting PrC/ you take above 20th you gain one count of enhance spell; it seems that in a high level epic game a psion may be a better choice since you dont have to sink so many feats into enhance spell).

Are there other factors that we should take into consideration (about psionic vs magic) before allowing non-psionic casters this privilege?
Well as you said spells will increase their capability on their own, if there is a caster level adjusted feature, up to where it is capped by the spell. Psionics on the other hand must pay more power points to increase its effectiveness. Also metamagic tends to be easier to apply with metamagic rods and spontaneous casting as the highest base level spell is 9 but someone casting can have double or more the caster level. An equivalent power though pays 17 power points which is the manifester level when they get these powers. So psionic characters have the advantage of amping up lower level powers to respectable use in high level situations while having to wait more to gear up on their new powers. While spellcasters can be to ready to decide on new spells while having to assess what situations are still good for low level spells. The issue comes down to spellcasters don't have pay that much extra for that major boost while psions do.
 
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The issue comes down to spellcasters don't have pay that much extra for that major boost while psions do.

Yeah this is a major issue (at least at higher levels), and in effect it is solved by the spells a regular spellcaster has access too. ALL spells I know of that deal instant damage cap out around 20dX to 25dX without enhance spell you cannot really get a spell to do more than 40d6 (disintegrate; you CAN do 32d6 with meteor swarm though, and 25d6 with polar ray) if your a regular spellcaster. Simply giving regular casters a spell that can be cast with no cap to damage die would be letting spellcasters do more than psionic manifesters for much less. But, if we give them enhance spell as a bonus feat every 10 levels then they would still have to pay the stacking 4 level increase that is attached to enhance spell (an enhanced fireball uses a level 7 spell slot).
 

But, if we give them enhance spell as a bonus feat every 10 levels then they would still have to pay the stacking 4 level increase that is attached to enhance spell (an enhanced fireball uses a level 7 spell slot).
That is only for prepared casters, spontaneous casters on the other hand do it for a move action. Aside from increased actions all they have to do to determine whether they can cast it or not is add the base level of the spell and metamagic adjustment to see if it is less or equal to their caster level. It doesn't cost any extra actions if they use metamagic specialist or accelerate metamagic(x). Clerics can burn turn undead attempts to reduce metamagic levels with divine metamagic(x). Even wizards can get in on it through some theurgy classes, Incantatrix, and UMD/staff manipulation. The point is that all metamagic adjustment does is stratify whether they can cast it or not. It doesn't count against how many times they can cast a day. Psionics simply didn't catch on at first and when it did it was late in 3.5, allowing lots of options for spell casters but few for manifesters. So, giving them that early robs a huge advantage of a psionic character over a spell caster. This metamagic is designed so that even your weak small spells can do something when you are slaying gods.
 


That is only for prepared casters, spontaneous casters on the other hand do it for a move action. Aside from increased actions all they have to do to determine whether they can cast it or not is add the base level of the spell and metamagic adjustment to see if it is less or equal to their caster level. It doesn't cost any extra actions if they use metamagic specialist or accelerate metamagic(x). Clerics can burn turn undead attempts to reduce metamagic levels with divine metamagic(x). Even wizards can get in on it through some theurgy classes, Incantatrix, and UMD/staff manipulation. T.

Thank you for the response, I love your username as well I am a graduate student in philosophy at San Francisco State university.
First, I am not really concerned with the extra action that metamagic feats add on to spontaneous casting (rapid metamagic feat is a fix for that).

Second I am mainly concerned with high level epic play and the incantrix class gets pretty obsolete at epic levels (there is an epic feat called improved metamagic that does the same thing as the incantrix's ability of the same name and you can take it multiple times). ALso, being able to use a metamagic feat for free 2/day is sort of underwhelming when you have more than 6 counts of improved metamagic. Anyway at high levels enhance spell simply augments the spell slot to much for incantrix (and even divine metamagic; UMD and staff maniplulation aside) to be as useful as they are at lower levels; at low levels these abilities allow you to cast a quickened and maximized lv. 9th spell at lv. 17!!! At higher levels metamagic is cheap .LEts go through some numbers:

Lets say I am a level 75 wizard/psion or cleric (I dont want to consider PrC's). My Int is 50, my cha is 50, or my wis is 50 (so I have a +20 modifier).

Lets say, when I am a wizard or cleric, that I have 6 counts of Enhance spell and 6 counts of improved metamagic, (and at least 1 count of multispell), 15 counts of improved metamagic, and I have 3 counts of automatic quicken spell (also I have twin spell, repeat spell, energy admixture, intensify spell, improved heightened spell, and the prereqs for all my feats of course, so I am doing alot of damage, actually at higher levels, at least when your CL=HD, regular spells are BETTER than epic spells at doing damage, but epic spells can do all sorts of interesting things that regular spells cannot, in terms of damage though, regular spells are better).

If I want to make a fireball do at max 70d6 damage I must apply all 6 of my enhance feats (4X6=24) minus improved metamagic it would take a level 21 spell slot to enhance fireball so that it does 70d6 damage (I quicken it for free, if I wanted to intensify, twin, repeat, and admixture it then it would take a level 25 spell slot). If I was an incantrix (I would have -1 count of imporved metamagic) and I could apply enhance spell to fireball ONLY TWO TIMES for free (this is arguably though) so we could decrease the spell slot for a fireball that does 70d6 damage by 8 slots ONLY once a day (so in this example the spell would use a level 17 spell slot but ONLY ONCE A DAY). Not that good. Again UMD and staff manipulation aside, since if spellcasters can then manifesters can manipulate items and UPD too.
(I think that divine metamagic is much better. Even at high levels, as long as you have a high cha, or alot of turning attempt, divine metamagic retains its usefulness).

Now to do 70d6 (max) damage with a fireball a regular caster must take at least 6 counts of enhance spell.

On the other hand a psion of level 75 could do 75d6 damage by augmenting his energy burst by 70 points, with no feats needed AND he would get a +35 bonus to DC just for increasing the PP used!!! And with improved manifestation feat, the psion should have plenty of PP at this level.
(you would need to put a spell in a 38 level spell slot to augment a level 3 spell +35 DC with improved heighten spell, if you were a wizard, and that would be applying NO other metamagic, no enhance spell, no twin spell, etc.' at level 75 almost no wizard/cleric/druid will have access to a 38th level spell slot at lv 75, considering they get access to 41 feats normally (25 from HD, and 16 from epic levels; 45 feats if your a wizard, the 4 bonus feats) 7 (or 11) of which must be non-epic; you would have needed to put 29 out of 34 epic feats into improved spell capacity; even if you did have access to a 38th level spell slot if you increased the DC by +35 then you could not apply any other metamagic feat to the spell, so a fireball that is heightened by +35 would take a level 38 spell slot and would do ONLY 10d6 damage, yeah you could use divine metamagic or incantrix abilities but those will not get you very far, if you had a 50 cha you would have 23 uses of turning, you could apply enhance spell 5 times and twin it and intensify this fireball would do 60d6 damage and be twined, etc. but you could do this ONCE a day [I know clerics dont get fireball as a spell but if they did...];

A Psion could spend 70 PP and his energy burst would do 75d6 damage and it would get its DC increased by +35! Also you could twin it and admixture it and intensify it, presumably for more PP (i am sure there are psionic variants of these feats, if there are not then there should be). Although they could probably only do this a few times a day they can do more than a regular casting (that is because PP gets them an increase in damage AND DC, something no regular caster can do by simply increasing the level). Giving regular casters enhance spell every 10 levels as a bonus feat would partially fix this (although a regular caster will still have a hard time doing AS MUCH damage and increasing the DC as much as a psion could; they just wouldnt need to sink so many feats into enhance spell to do it).

If I am starting a level 75 game then the psion is a better choice than the wizard, unless we give the wizard enhacne spell every 10 levels after 20th (I would have at least 6 feats extra and when I grow in level I wouldnt have to worry about sinking more feats into enhance power, and heighten spell is not a worry either).
 
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... Are there other factors that we should take into consideration (about psionic vs magic) before allowing non-psionic casters this privilege?

Yes. While a 30th level Wizard casting Fireball is only good for 10d6 and a Psion manifesting Energy Sphere: Fire could be throwing a 30d6+30 fireball. One costs a 3rd level slot and the other costs 30 power points. Psion's advantage appears to diminish greatly when you take into consideration that a "Slot caster" of equal power can usually Meta-feat their spells like crazy... while Psions tend to have difficulty using more than one Meta-feat at a time.

So after a couple feats are taken for both of my example 30th level Boomsticks...
Psion: metapower (complete psi) + empower + privileged energy (comp psi) could be tossing a 30d6+60 x1.5 fireball for 30pts. Average dmg: 247.5
Wizard: Arcane Thesis: fireball + multiple shenanigans feats to keep the slot low - including an Epic Feat + Enhance Spell twice + empower + maximize + twin spell... 30d6 (maxed, twinned) x1.5... without raising the slot much at all, with some interpretatins of Arcane Thesis, this could be throw as a cantrip. Average dmg: 232.5 (averaged Empower's boost) x2 (twinned = two fireballs going off, for those who don't know).

My math could be better, there are a lot more ways to boost a Wizard's fireball that I am just not quite remembering at this time... but in short do not feel too bad for the Mage. Granted, he has to spend beaucoup feats to make this happen (I think its possible to get off more than one Psi Metafeat on a power, but I haven't played high level recently enough to remember how), but I've had a lvl 29 Wizard capable of doing 5-digit dmg and still had some crafting feats.

edit: "Arcane Thesis: -1 per metamagic applied. Epic Improved Metamagic: all metafeats cost -1, per instance of this feat. Minimum of +1. Arcane Thesis doesn't have this minimum, so could reduce the metafeat costs to 0." Granted, the Psion does "well" with little to no extra feats (see above), but the Wizard who puts his mind (read: feats) towards "BOOM" drives straight into crazytown.
 
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Yes. While a 30th level Wizard casting Fireball is only good for 10d6 and a Psion manifesting Energy Sphere: Fire could be throwing a 30d6+30 fireball. One costs a 3rd level slot and the other costs 30 power points. Psion's advantage appears to diminish greatly when you take into consideration that a "Slot caster" of equal power can usually Meta-feat their spells like crazy... while Psions tend to have difficulty using more than one Meta-feat at a time.

I TOTALLY forgot about the psionic focus requirement when using metapsionic feats. This makes a huge difference, thank youfor reminding me.
 

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