Psionic vs Arcane: Build me some characters.

[Majere]

Heh. But this only compares the spellcasting versus manifesting ability. Not all the stuff outside this comparison (skills, feats, quicker power access, flexibility, etc), which is a huge advantage for the psion!

And, as I said above, if only by using Metamagic Rods excessively the sorcerer can keep up, than things are very, very wrong!

Bye
Thanee

To refer to the first point.
From the post comparing pure HP damage the sorcerer outperforms the psion.
This would be made up for by the psions better selection of spells feats etc. While the level is certainly one that gives the advantage to the psion as scaling is at a cap, the sorcerer doesnt have his 6th level spells yet which is a fairly big disadvantage.
Maybe the two arent completely balanced, but certainly I hope you will admit that so far the evidence seems to suggest a better level of equity that one might have assumed from just reading how psions work on paper.

As to the second point
I would assume that IF the psi hb was play tested, it would have been tested against arcane casters with free acess to magic items in the DMG. Thus it is not unfair to allow casters the meta magic rods.
Maybe they are the missing link in how to balance the differing clases ?

I say
POST MORE CHARACTERS
Because Im certainly learning more with every post

I would be intereted to see how an arcane caster using spells like dominate or disintigrate would fare against the domination Psion.

Majere

 

[Shadowdweller]

Re: Metamagic Rods

That's the same, I'd assume those can be used for an arcanist as well.
But they hardly are in the same league, when it comes to the effect.

True, but then that raises the question of whether or not psionic versions were specifically left out for reasons of balance. I'd probably tend to think that the PsiHB designers just weren't thinking about such rods, but it's not something I could say with any surety.

(I've chosen, as a DM, not to allow psionic versions thereof in my games...but maybe that's just me.)

 

[Shadowdweller]

Wraith:Average damage: 5d4+5= 17.5
Slots: 6 3rd level

Also, don't forget the Empowerment: (17.5)1.5 = 26.25 s/b 4 slots.

Heh. And while we're quibbling numbers, am I missing something here:

Hezrou - four Energy Missiles (fire; 10d6+10-10; 10 PP). DC 27, +20 vs SR/PR.

How are you getting +20 vs. PR? I count +14 vs PR WITH the expenditure of your Psionic Focus (requires a 7 or better to regain without the non-core concentration belt). And are you not overchanneling for PP or HP economy?
Edit: Urgh, noted upon reading that both power/greater power penetration stack for +4 each. With Third Eye penetrate, that does indeed make +20. My apologies.

Also, save DC 27? That's 10 +7 (int) +1 (Psionitrix) + 7 (augmentation) + what? 10 + 7 + 1 + 7 = 25. EDIT: BLEH! (+ 2 pwr lvl; my bad!)

 

[Majere]

Ok fixing the hezrou thing
Av damage per spell is: 1.745625
Fireball stats: 7 to break Sr, 14 to make save
Av damage on an empowered fireball: 23.32

Given that with 9 negative levels the Hezrou has 93 hp It appears to be better to just enervat it to death

Av spells to kill hezrou: 7.37 4th level spells

The wraith thing
Average damage: 26.25
Average spells : 3.96

Meh sorry about all the mistakes, its 2am here !

Majere

 

[Thanee]

While the level is certainly one that gives the advantage to the psion as scaling is at a cap, ...

This level is probably the most advantageous for the sorcerer, guess you mixed that up.

...the sorcerer doesnt have his 6th level spells yet which is a fairly big disadvantage.

Noone has 6th level spells/powers yet, again an "advantage" for the sorcerer, since they lack behind half a spell level, which isn't covered here.

Maybe the two arent completely balanced, but certainly I hope you will admit that so far the evidence seems to suggest a better level of equity that one might have assumed from just reading how psions work on paper.

Have you read my comparison?

The point that is compared here, which I still believe the psion has at least a slight advantage, if you widen the field (i.e. how about including an odd character level), I considered equal in my comparison!

I would assume that IF the psi hb was play tested, it would have been tested against arcane casters with free acess to magic items in the DMG. Thus it is not unfair to allow casters the meta magic rods.
Maybe they are the missing link in how to balance the differing clases ?

Oh, please...

I would be intereted to see how an arcane caster using spells like dominate or disintigrate would fare against the domination Psion.

Those spells are not available at this level. The psion is technically using Dominate Monster (with lower duration)... a 9th level spell!!

Bye
Thanee

 

[green slime]

Besides, if Metamagic Rods are the only way for the sorcerer to make decent use out of their spells, then their certainly is something wrong.

Not the only way. They just used items that exist in the rules to their advantage. As did you!

 

[Spatula]

Well, I can't really presume to oppose you on the thought that as that is written, energy missile is abusive, because, well, I beleive it is.

I just beleive that it will or should be errata'd, as it clearly betrays an existing convention for save DCs, and I have no reason to presume that by the power's capabilities that it deserves any special compensation in this department (quite the contrary).

It would be an easy enough change to fit in the errata, wouldn't it? Which makes it all the more perplexing that it wasn't in the errata at all. It looks to me as if WOTC has no intention of changing how the power works (myself, I made all sorts of changes to energy missile for my own game).

 

[Spatula]

I'm clearly behind the times on the XPH.....when was the latest errata posted/updated?

8/6/04. There is no "latest" errata - it hasn't been changed since it was made available.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

 

[green slime]

This level is probably the most advantageous for the sorcerer, guess you mixed that up.

I disagree. I think that the half a spell level behind is a bit of a mirage, as the difference in a 9th level sorcerer and a 10th is 1 5th level spell, and 1 0th level spell known.

At 11th level, the sorcerer gains 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th and 1 5th level spells known. Vastly increasing the sorcerers flexibility. At lower levels it is more noticeable missing out on a spell level. 11th is a good sorcerer level. Yes the lost spell level hurts.

Secondly, I feel that comparing within these limits, PHB-XPH-DMG is too limiting, it favours the psion in that that book is just about psionics. A better comparision would be to include other arcane material, preferably from Complete Arcane, but lacking that, then the T&B, and MaF are the closest approximations.

There are a few items, feats, powers in XPH which, to me, seem out of line with the power level established in the PHB. This is the case with every supplement I have ever set my eyes on.

 

[green slime]

Another thought regarding the slaughtering of monsters all lined up:

On a roll of 8d6+8, not only must the Treant fail its save, you must roll more than 21 on 8d6 to kill it if it fails its save.

Therefore there is a 9% chance that you will roll 21 or less and therefore not do adequate damage to kill the treant.

21+8*1.5 = 29+14.5 = 43.5 *1.5 for vulnerability = 65.25

This means the chance of dropping the Treant in one foul swoop is 86.45% (0.91*0.95), because even if 8 6's are rolled, if the save is made, the damage is not enough to kill the beast (56*1.5 = 84, 84/2= 42, 42+21 as per your reading of vulnerability = 63)