D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Todd Roybark]

Bolded the ones relevant to me - the "sci-fi feeling" thing isn't exactly right, but a DIFFERENT feeling to D&D-style slot-magic is important.

A different thematic feel doesn't have to mean different mechanics though.

An Echo Knight that is described as using Psionic Energy is straight out of Remote Viewing lore.

The mechanics are a means to advance play, not a way to shackle it.

Take a cleric, use the Spell Point option...swap out some spells. Replace Channel Divinity with Psionic Recovery, which is just like Arcane Recovery but for Psionics.
Allow Psionic Recovery to get multiple uses per Long Rest, like Channel Divinity.
Swap Divine Intervention for a Magical Secrets like ability.

I'd play that. Would you play that class? The engine works...the frame is solid.
In car terms Psionics is an appearance item, like a fender.
It is easy to modifier, and won't wreck the car.
Dont haphazardly start modifying an engine, though.

Let the designers use what we know works.

The U/A Psi Knight feels like a Psionic Warrior....not the weak caster that the Psychic Warrior was in 3e. It plays like a 5e Battlemind, especially with the Telekinetic feat.

I think you can achieve the feel of play you want with all the classes 5e has now,mic you are willing to modify and be open minded.

Of course, you might feel differently, and I would be interested to know, why if you do.

 

[Azzy]

Found this interesting in the 3.5 Psionic Handbook:

"Some people do not use psionics in their D&D games. This reluctance is usually due to the way previous editions have handled psionics rules. In previous editions, psionics rule systems are add-ons that do not dovetail well with the core rules. In contrast, psionics rules for the new edition of the D&D game are integrated into the core mechanics of the game. A psionic character will be balanced with a non-psionic character of equal level. You’ll be able to multiclass into and out of the psionic character classes like you can with the core classes."

Of course, 3e psionics routinely got lambasted for being “spells with the word psionic tacked on.” The pendulum swings.

IMHO, 3e and 4e psionics were probably the best iteration. I don't mind that psionics are spells or magic, but I don't want psionics to just be subsumed by arcane magic. I want it to be more like divine cleric magic or primal druid magic, which both co-exist alongside arcane magic without people calling for the death of clerics and druids since sorcerers and wizards already exist.

The 3.5 psionics rules were, IMO, the best we've had (I didn't play 4e, so I can't speak to that—although I do have the 4e Psionic Power rulebook as it was given to me by a friend who wong it in a trivia contest). In one of the psionic wizard subclass UAs, part of my feedback is that even if they print the subclass that it's not a substitute for having a psion class. I also said that the 3.5 psion was likely the best model for a 5e subclass—complete with built-in subclasses with the different disciplines (you could even turn the wilder and possibly erudite into psion subclasses). The psionic powers in 3.5 were alread a direct analog to spells with 9 levels, magic transparency as the default, and such, so it wouldn't be amiss if they went with spell slots given that the spell point rules in the DMG would allow for point-based powers of 3.5 and earlier editions if one wanted them. I also asked them to bring back psicrystals (wich were cool af) and astral constructs. The psychic warrior and soulknife make sense as subclasses, but some of the psionic feats that played a big part of those classes should be brought back as class features.

So I hope that what we get in Tasha's isn't the be-all-end-all of psionics in 5e and that they at least take my suggestion under consideration.

 

[Maxperson]

You think there aren't distinctions between Arcane and Divine magic in 3e and 4e?

I can't speak much to 4e, but from what I read it didn't really seem like there was much differentiation. If there was, I'd like to hear it.

3e is what literally gave us the terms "Arcane" and "Divine" when "Wizard" and "Priest" magic was generally used before that. When you read the spellcasting descriptions in a 3e class, it specifically enumerates if it's considered arcane or divine. . .and one hard mechanical difference between them is that divine spells don't suffer from Arcane Spell Failure for somatic components in armor. Also, Prestige Classes often specified if spellcasting for a prerequisite had to be Arcane or Divine in nature. . .Cleric or Druid spellcasting would never qualify you for Arcane Archer, and no amount of Wizard levels could qualify you to be a Heirophant.

I forgot about spell failure. That's one mechanical difference. The mechanical requirements for prestige classes is the same for divine as it is for arcane. All that's different is the name. The same for pretty much everything else, too.

In both 3e and 5e we have arcane and divine as names. In both 3e and 5e arcane comes from the weave or something similar, and divine comes from the gods/faith. In both 3e and 5e the spells in each category are virtually the same. In both 3e and 5e you had some divine access to arcane spells and vice versa.

4e went so far as to break down all classes into a "power source" and a role. . .with Arcane and Divine as two of the first and major "power sources".

Sure, but other than divine being for divine and arcane being for arcane, what were the mechanical differences? In 5e arcane is for arcane and divine is for divine, too. They just aren't called power sources.

 

[Mistwell]

A different thematic feel doesn't have to mean different mechanics though.

An Echo Knight that is described as using Psionic Energy is straight out of Remote Viewing lore.

The mechanics are a means to advance play, not a way to shackle it.

Take a cleric, use the Spell Point option...swap out some spells. Replace Channel Divinity with Psionic Recovery, which is just like Arcane Recovery but for Psionics.
Allow Psionic Recovery to get multiple uses per Long Rest, like Channel Divinity.
Swap Divine Intervention for a Magical Secrets like ability.

I'd play that. Would you play that class? The engine works...the frame is solid.
In car terms Psionics is an appearance item, like a fender.
It is easy to modifier, and won't wreck the car.
Dont haphazardly start modifying an engine, though.

Let the designers use what we know works.

The U/A Psi Knight feels like a Psionic Warrior....not the weak caster that the Psychic Warrior was in 3e. It plays like a 5e Battlemind, especially with the Telekinetic feat.

I think you can achieve the feel of play you want with all the classes 5e has now,mic you are willing to modify and be open minded.

Of course, you might feel differently, and I would be interested to know, why if you do.

Personally I think the College of Whispers Bard makes the best base engine for a Psion.

 

[Maxperson]

3.5 made at least a little distinction anyway... "Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells. The divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells." ... "However, only characters who have the spell in question (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll."

This is not really much different from 5e. In 5e clerics and paladins cast divine spells, just as they did in 3e(in 3e paladin spells were specifically divine). They moved rangers and clerics to nature, but that's just the same as divine and arcane. In 5e, just as in 3e, divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy and destructive overall than arcane spells. Both editions are much the same here.

As far as scroll use goes, that's scroll mechanics. Not really a difference between divine and arcane.

And they had different lists and could be different level of spell. ::::

But this was not a difference between arcane and divine. There were arcane spells that differed in level between various arcane classes, and divine spells that differed in level between various divine classes.

For there to be a mechanical difference between divine magic and arcane magic, something has to be significantly different with how they are used. Take one DM I played with during the 1e days. At one point he made it so that clerics just prayed for their spells as they needed them. If someone got hurt, you prayed for cure light wounds on the spot and marked off a 1st level spell slot. No preparing lists at all. THAT is a mechanical difference.

 

[Umbran]

As an argument, it's irrational and somewhat laughable.

You said "Ur dumb, u should b hapy that u even got those 3, wat more u want????!!!111" (paraphrasing loosely)
...
I mean that's just ludicrous.

Mod Note:
You don't seem to be approaching this from a very even keel yourself. If you continue in with the kind of insulting and loaded language, you should expect this to go very poorly for you very shortly.

If you think that little of the position, either don't dignify it with a response, or dial back the disdain about 7 notches, please and thank you.

 

[wingsandsword]

As I understand it though, the Weave is the way for mortals to access magic. It is not the source of magic itself. Otherwise, Mystra should just turn off magic in the Nine Hells, the Abyss, ect. But she can't, because she provides the interface that allows mortals to access and effect magic, not the entirety of magic itself. Sort of how your keyboard isn't the source of the electricity and drives that makes your computer work.

Mystra is the Goddess of Magic in the Realms, why would her power extend beyond the crystal sphere of Realmspace to other planes? She doesn't have sovereignty over magic all throughout the multiverse, like in the Nine Hells or the Abyss. A Goddess of Magic from one single Prime Material world doesn't have universal say-so over other planes.

No matter how you describe or try to paraphrase it, arcane magic is something that in multiple mainstream, popular D&D settings doesn't come from within, but explicitly requires activity from a deity to exist. Without the Weave, only the Gods Themselves can use magic in Realmspace. . .and gee, I've already established that metaphysically, Gods can grant spells and provide magical energy.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Personally I think the College of Whispers Bard makes the best base engine for a Psion.

That could work well. You could even pull off a Scott Pilgrim sort of Psychic vibe.

 

[Weiley31]

I'm actually surprised they just didn't use the Spell Points variant rules for Pisonics.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Nope.


Yes, a sorcerer with psion theme is what psions are in this edition. You're rejecting this approach without having seen the rules because it is not called 'psion'. You're irrationally fixated on the nomenclature.

No. A sorcerer with a psion theme is a sorcerer. The name of the class is sorcerer.