D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Chaosmancer]

well4e did so too.
The difference is in 4e, only 5 classes actually casted "spells".

I had forgotten that

Exactly. People can homebrew what ever they want.
But Out Of The Box rulesis that people who cast spell use an interface. Weave, True Names, Winds of Magic, Magic Heraldry, Bloodlines, orwhatever.
You can takeout the interface but then the mechanics stops matching the lore without additional homebrew rules.

People can build whatever they want, yes.

Ok, we agree that people can make what they want. Good.

But, what other rules are needed? The mechanics don't involve the weave at all. No where in the process of casting a Magic Missile am I referencing the Weave.

In fact, taking out the Weave does not require any additional rules, whatsoever. I don't understand why you think it does.

Hey. You're right! oxygen and hydrogen have no useful distinction, because they are both gases. Just like mind powers and magic have no useful distinction, because both are supernatural.

Or else both pairs are distinct in and of themselves, even if they share a category.

Oh hey, you are right! Taking things and making extreme examples that completely obfuscate the point makes you look like you are making an argument.

Obviously you skipped the part of my post where I said " A distinction that is only useful if people make it useful. "

I tried to make it a little more noticeable for you this time.

Oxygen and Hydrogen have a useful distinction between them. A glock and an AK-47 have a useful distinction between them. But, if I am playing a game where all "guns" are dealing 2d8 damage, regardless of if it is a Glock or an AK, then the distinction isn't useful in game.

Levitation is a spell in the game. Shooting "mind-bullets" is a spell in the game. They are both magic. Right now. No psionic rules needed. I can point you to "Levitate" and "Mind Spike" two spells that can be described as exactly those phenomena.

So, by saying they are supernatural, but not magic, you are actually wrong, because I found magic spells that do those things. They are magic. And if Psionics end up doing the exact same effects.... is there a useful distinction?

 

[Minigiant]

Ok, we agree that people can make what they want. Good.

But, what other rules are needed? The mechanics don't involve the weave at all. No where in the process of casting a Magic Missile am I referencing the Weave.

In fact, taking out the Weave does not require any additional rules, whatsoever. I don't understand why you think it does

The weave is only one interpretation of the interface.

Like I said.

If Psionics or Primal or Incarnium are spells, then wizards can add them to their books.

Then a cleric can dip into a level of psion and toss their 1st level psionic spell in a 9th level loss.

The new Fey/Shadow feats that let you know any 1st level spell of certain school. ANY SPELL FROM ANY CLASS of those schools.

Coffeelocks.

Youll have to add rules to make the lore start looking screwy and weird.

 

[cbwjm]

For me a spell or power directly draws upon magic, there is no weave/interface between the spell and magic that allows a spellcaster to safely cast a spell. The weave is a great idea for FR, particularly when Shar created the shadow weave, but I tend to leave it in that setting.

FR has spell - weave - magic. I just have spell - magic

 

[Maxperson]

Obviously you skipped the part of my post where I said " A distinction that is only useful if people make it useful. "

I tried to make it a little more noticeable for you this time.

I didn't miss it. I answered it with my response. Magic and not magic have a distinction of their own. It doesn't take someone to make it useful.

Oxygen and Hydrogen have a useful distinction between them

The distinction between magic and not magic is just as useful. If psionics are supernatural, but not magic, then detect magic and dispel magic won't work against psionics. Other things will be different as well. It does not take a person to view those as distinct. They are distinct on their own merits.

Levitation is a spell in the game. Shooting "mind-bullets" is a spell in the game. They are both magic. Right now.

Cool. You magic levitation can be dispelled, but if psionics is supernatural, but not magical, mine can't be.

No psionic rules needed.

This is your opinion. My opinion is that your magical levitation rules can't duplicate psionic levitation. Just because you can point to oil and synthetic oil, doesn't make them the same thing, despite their similarity.

So, by saying they are supernatural, but not magic, you are actually wrong, because I found magic spells that do those things.

You actually believe that?

 

[Minigiant]

For me a spell or power directly draws upon magic, there is no weave/interface between the spell and magic that allows a spellcaster to safely cast a spell. The weave is a great idea for FR, particularly when Shar created the shadow weave, but I tend to leave it in that setting.

FR has spell - weave - magic. I just have spell - magic

Works fine. Do you.
It's just that 4e and 5e deem that there is some sort of interface in to turn magic into a spell in the default rules.
You don't have to follow this but the base game mechanics and choices of subclasses run on this assumption.

 

[Wishbone]

Fightbrain.

The battlemind weeps quietly in the corner.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Works fine. Do you.
It's just that 4e and 5e deem that there is some sort of interface in to turn magic into a spell in the default rules.
You don't have to follow this but the base game mechanics and choices of subclasses run on this assumption.

They, um, don't. At all. They work if you have that assumption, and work just fine if it's missing. They're not based on that assumption at all.

The setting lore may have this assumption, and stories you tell might have this assumption, but that's not the same as saying the mechanics require the assumption to function. They clearly don't.

 

[cbwjm]

Works fine. Do you.
It's just that 4e and 5e deem that there is some sort of interface in to turn magic into a spell in the default rules.
You don't have to follow this but the base game mechanics and choices of subclasses run on this assumption.

What mechanics in 5e? I don't recall seeing anything to do with the mechanics of the game or even subclasses that deals with the weave. About the only thing I really remember is that there was a text box talking about it. I'm not saying they aren't there, but I definitely don't recall them so I'm thinking it has little to no impact on a game.

I also don't recall it being mentioned as a setting default for 4e, but then it has been a while since I've looked at 4e.

 

[Minigiant]

They, um, don't. At all. They work if you have that assumption, and work just fine if it's missing. They're not based on that assumption at all.

The setting lore may have this assumption, and stories you tell might have this assumption, but that's not the same as saying the mechanics require the assumption to function. They clearly don't.

No.They do.
Several rules rely on the classes and spellcasting having a shared link.

 

[see]

It could have been both had Gygax created it that way. He didn't, though, and so we have a lot of people for whom that distinction is very important.

Seriously, this is like playing whack-a-mole. Features of 2nd edition psionics are not the same thing as features of psionics from D&D day one. The interaction of spells and psionics was entirely undefined prior to 2nd edition, in part because psionic powers were basically rare and minor extras bolted on to characters who could participate in psionic combat, which was the heart and soul of 0e/1e psionics (which were born as a counter to 0e mind flayers). So it was entirely a matter of table call whether or not, say, anti-magic shell would block psionic powers.

And Gygax didn't create D&D psionics. Tim Kask, editor of Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry, created D&D psionics.