Psionics-Love it or Hate It?

[Khorod]

I agree with Psionicist.

One of the things that gets me is that, as a Pseudo-scientific form, it should not be as tied up to the whimsical little things that balance magic.

For example, that spell, um, power that lets you craft a bolt or sling bullet as a talent. Thats remarkably strict. Psionic creation like that, imo, should allow you to create anything within volume X of max density Y, or something. Nor reason why you can't create a chess piece with that power... That is just one, small, example. Translating spells doesn't work, because spells are magic spells, rituals to call upon the power of the universe to do something. Psionic powers, to me at least, are about the psion using his mind to very precisely change how something is acting in the universe- nothing happens below or beyond his determination, unless his will is not strong enough.

As a replacement for magic in a D&D style setting, however, it can bring a new flavor, and while reduced in power, it overlaps with both arcane and divine magic a little.

Psicrystals were the coolest thing in the book.

 

[Psion]

2 gp...

3e psionics are great. Many of the changes (like transparency with magic) are changes I had made anyway and it was a good idea to use the normal D&D magic power scale. Ditching things like maintenance cost makes it a lot more playable.

I do not agree with people who say it lacks that "special feel". I think the PsiHB has a lot of feel to it, it's just not so heavily mechanical. That feel that you are lacking from earlier editions is the feel of being broken. I can live wtthout that feel, thanks.

I also vehemently disagree with those who say psionics doesn't go in fantasy. You could not be more wrong. Read some darkover or deryni novels sometime. Psionics is a flavor of magic, always has been. If anything, it is more out of place in sci-fi.

I see no problem having it side-by-side with arcane magic. My players can certainly tell the difference among NPCs.

 

[shurai]

Psion-

I understand you were making a point when you say "if anything," but I can't disagree with you more when you say that psionics is more out of place in science fiction than fantasy. Many major science fiction settings allow psionics, and some of them have a major role. Babylon 5's telepaths, Star War's Jedi, Akira's Kaneda, and Star Trek's various empathic and telepathic characters all show that if you're in a sci-fi setting, chances are somebody can read someone else's mind or play I'm-crushing-your-head for keeps.

Not only that, but humans having some kind of mental 'untapped potential' is a major theme of many different sci-fi that really is more psionic-flavored than magic-flavored. It's everywhere, man.

-S

 

[Psion]

Right, but you are missing my point. Manipulating the universe by means of mechanism other than via engineering or otherwise exercising laws of nature is, by any fair definition, magic. Yes, there are sci-fi stories (many) that feature it, but as magic, any story that features it is inherently pushed towards the fantasy end of the spectrum.

"Psionics" and the associtated techno-babble are just window dressing for what is, in truth, magic. The authors have to dress it up to make it seem like it fits. But as magic, its first home is fantasy.

 

[rounser]

Psion - Psionics and psychic powers may make sci-fi "more fantasy", but I'd argue that it also does a good job of making swords & sorcery fantasy "more sci-fi". Your mileage does vary.

 

[Psion]

Psion - Psionics and psychic powers may make sci-fi "more fantasy", but I'd argue that it also does a good job of making swords & sorcery fantasy "more sci-fi".

Eh. I'd so plopping in things like steampunk/magitek armor, prop powered dirigible "flying ships", etc. would make fantasy more sci-fi.

But adding what is essentially magic to fantasy makes it... still fantasy.

Now I might agree that if it was still littered with terms like "cell" and "molecule" as in 1e/2e, i.e., arguably scientific terms, it would have that feel. But it doesn't.

 

[rounser]

It's interesting to look back to pioneering RPG settings such as Blackmoor and Arduin and see how hard sci-fi elements (laser guns, space ships etc.) were put there, and how they seem less out of place than contemporary technology, such as six shooters and cars.

Then you have your steampunk tech, which fits fantasy even more than hard sci-fi.

If I were to make a "swords and sorcery fantasy anachronism scale", it might go something like this:

High swords & sorcery anachronism
1) Modern contemporary elements (e.g. machine guns, cars, syringes, visiting 20th century London etc.)
2) Futuristic "hard" sci-fi elements (e.g. lasers, biotech, space ships etc.)
3) "Soft" sci-fi and "space opera" elements, steampunk, magitech etc. (e.g. flying carpet postal services, non-magical time travel, psionics, the force, chaos engines, gnome contraptions, flying ships in space etc.)
4) Renaissance/dark-ages/ancient/dinosaur-age anachronisms (e.g. dinosaurs and rapiers in the same setting, "spanish main" gunpowder and canon alongside standard medieval armaments etc.)
Low swords & sorcery anachronism

That's just my take on it - surely there are folks who see gunpowder as more anachronistic with regards to sword and sorcery than psionics, and also the setting goes a long way towards providing a place for something that would be anachronistic in another setting. Large amounts of psionics fits neatly and non-anachronistically in Dark Sun, just as gnomish tech fits neatly in Dragonlance, flying ships in outer space do in Spelljammer, a crashed spaceship and resulting fallout do in Blackmoor, Murlynd with six-shooters does in Greyhawk, and gunpowder oddities do in the Forgotten Realms.

Likewise, you could make allowances for all these things in a homebrew. However, these are variations on generic sword & sorcery assumptions, where Merlin and Gandalf default to using magic rather than psionics, and Arthur and Aragorn default to swinging longswords rather than lunging with rapiers. Happily, you can substitute psionics for magic and rapiers for longswords, and not much changes, which is your argument...save for some of the default assumptions behind the setting. Sometimes, though, it feels more comfortable to settle back into the swords & sorcery default. Scrub all you like, there's still a touch of sci-fi feel to psionics, just as there's a touch of renaissance feel to rapiers. Is it enough to matter? That's up to the individual.

Because of the richness of borrowing that occurs in D&D, there's also the issues of displacement of setting themes. Dinosaurs in Chult is one thing. Dinosaurs all over the Forgotten Realms is another. In Malatra, the Living Jungle, dinosaurs being everywhere is not an issue. Likewise, a bit of psionics in the Forgotten Realms is one thing - emphasising it to the exclusion of magic (a strong theme of the setting) is another. In Dark Sun, the latter example is not an issue, but by that token Dark Sun varies more from default sword & sorcery genre assumptions than the Forgotten Realms do...which is sort of my point.

 

[Voneth]

Right, but you are missing my point. Manipulating the universe by means of mechanism other than via engineering or otherwise exercising laws of nature is, by any fair definition, magic. Yes, there are sci-fi stories (many) that feature it, but as magic, any story that features it is inherently pushed towards the fantasy end of the spectrum.

"Psionics" and the associtated techno-babble are just window dressing for what is, in truth, magic. The authors have to dress it up to make it seem like it fits. But as magic, its first home is fantasy.

If you took a typical sci-fi story of a time traveler who used a Enotepad to make an animated show on the LCD screen in front of a 10th century monk, the monk would say magic. The time traveler would say "electrons, batteries, LCD screen." -- All technobabble to the 10th century monk.

So part of the whole "technobabble" is showing a reader or audeince that the laws of science change with time and our clearer understanding of what goes on. How else does a writer demonstrate that technology and science will change beyond our current understanding in the future? Because if you only accept what is only currently proven, SF gets dull pretty quick.

I stand in the psionics can be in both genres camp, but I lean towards the psionics is sci fi.

 

[Khorod]

And while psionics might be about using the mind's psychic potential to play havoc with the molecular structure of the Warp Nacells... your internal harmony and ability to flow with the Tao allows you to impose your will in the unfolding of the universe.

Not only can psionics be Sci-fi or Fantasy, it itself can range to seeming more sci or more fantasy.

But really, the full premise of psionics places it in the range of the weird Science Fantasy genre. Psionics is neither pure sci-fi nor pure fantasy, if nothing else because of the nature of the window dressing. Perception is the reality, or else Star Wars and B5 are simply Fantasy genre stories.

 

[Breakdaddy]

I love the new psionics system of 3e. Although my old 2e Psionite wasnt easy to convert, the new system is a lot less "broken". The old way made my Psionite a damned near invincible character.