Psionics -- why do people bother?

[Katowice]

In a "western European" flavored game, psionics probably doesn't fit right in. However, if you're running an "Asian" themed game, change "psionics" to "ki" or "chi" and I think it fits right in.

 

[Particle_Man]

I love psionics. I am thinking of designing a system in which the only spell/power casters are bards, psions and favored souls (Complete Divine).

 

[rushlight]

Dear sir, I believe you totally missed the point of my post...

If by science and research you mean the complete failure of ESP proponents to produce any solid evidence of their claims to scientists, then I suppose your right.

I never said it was proven or disproven - only that it was scientifically researched. You can't deny that it hasn't been looked into. My point is that since it has been investigated from a scientific viewpoint, the "feel" of psionics for some is scientific.

A misrepresentation of facts at best. You use all of your brain, you just don't fire EVERY NEURON at the same moment.

Perhaps you missed that I put that in quotes - I realize that the saying I used was not based in any real science.

Sorry, but Psionics are just as fictional as Magic. They are both 'make-believe' things, and have no scientific weight to them. The only difference between these two concepts is the time between their conception.

This is why psionics belongs in fantasy just as much as magic does.

True, there isn't any scientific proof. But it still has the "stink of science" regardless. Just like if we're talking specifics from the Star Trek universe. While nothing on a starship is real in any sense, the milieu is still scientific. Phasers and tricorders have a "science" feel. Same with psionics for many people.

 

[akchf]

I as a DM have to admit that I really didn't like the psionic handbook because I felt a lot the things in there were out of balance with the core rules. Probably one of the other things I didn't like was that it was a completely different system that didn't interact very well with magic. This bothered me because there seemed to be no checks and balances that could be used. Even divine and arcane magic had their own interactions that balanced the game.
With the release of the Expanded Psionic Handbook I have considered it and think it's much more balanced. I like the fact that they allow for psionic powers to be another form of magic and allow more interaction with magic. I've even considered allowing it and allowing some of the many spells and powers that match to be used to counterspell and interact even more so than the rules, but I would raise the DC for identifying and counterspelling by 5 or so to account for the difference between casting spells and manifesting psionic powers.

 

[DonaldRumsfeldsTofu]

And what is your definition of fantasy anyway? It seems like most people think of fantasy in terms of the "Medieval Europe." (White-centric aren't we) What about the Indian yogi's with the ability to shape both body and mind? Australian aborigine's ability to travel into the dreamtime? Chinese seers advising the emperor? True, it can be seen as magic as well, but I don't remember any of them waving around bat poop. While I'm ranting, might as well get rid of monks. I don't remember Gandalf chatting with Crouching Tiger the monk. Remember, there are other lands in fantasy worlds that haven't been explored. Doubtful they followed the same "sword & sorcery" path.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I'm getting kind of annoyed at people prattling on about how anything that wasn't featured in the Lord of the Rings novels "goes against the grain of Sword and Sorcery". That's an annoying mantra.

 

[Ibram]

magic and psionics are so rare IMC that I dont think my players noticed which one I was using at any one time. So far I've only had two psionic characters:
a Half-Orc telepath (a professional diplomat). he was a good character, unfortunatly he was created when I was still more of a hack&slash DM so he kinda fell flat.
a Kataros (cat person) pyrokeneticist, good character who liked to burn lots of things. I dont quite remember her fate...

 

[Kesh]

If anyone actually in this world had "Super Brain Powers" they would have already collected James Randi's 1 Million dollar prize.

Except that everything I've read about Randi's test makes it seem unscientific, at best (and impossibly biased, at worst). If there were someone with obviously verifiable abilities, I'd recommend they go straight to the TV networks and forget about Randi. They'd never see the money.

 

[Wombat]

I've never liked the "feel" of psionics, as presented. While I know some of it is supposed to represent ch'i or other meditational powers, the write-ups always made me think of odd science fantasy novels, weird horror tales, and suchlike. As most of my campaigns are based on a medieval-renaissance feel, psioncs just feels utterly out of place.

I did use psionics once, in a John Carter-esque world where there was no other form of magic. With ray guns and personal flying ships, the psionics seemed to fit right in. Other than that, I've disliked the notion of psionics since the Eldritch Wizardry days.

To each there own, I suppose...

 

[hobbes]

Why have they persisted? They have always seemed like a bad idea for a "swords and sorcery" game like DnD. Why wasn't (or isn't) magic enough?

Exacerbating the problem of their "poor fit" with fantasy IMO, the rules for psionics have ALWAYS seemed problematic (at least as far as I can tell -- I'm no historian of DnD).

I'm genuinely curious why some people like including psionics in their DnD campaigns. What do they add to the game? (Aside from more rules, that is )

I know that there are many folks out there who don't particularly like the Vance-ian style of magic (involving memorization of spells, etc.) I know that I am particularly dissatisfied by the whole concept of spell slots (you can only cast one seventh level spell per day, and if you prepared the wrong one well...you're screwed). The idea with psionics (particularly in 3e, and finessed in the EPH) is that you have an alternate magic system that relies on a point system rather than decideing an preparing spells that fill certain slots.

In the past, psionics were problematic at best. Psionics originally were something that would be grafted on top of an exiting character class, rather than their own set of 'alternate magic' classes. That was corrected some time ago (2nd Edition? 2.5?) Since 3rd Edition came out, I have really fallen in love with the mechanics of the psionics system and the EPH simply balances things out a bit, and better integrates it with arcane and divine magic (each system has it's own style and group of abilities).

Personally, I much prefer the casting style of 3E psionics:

You only have so much power. These are the powers (spells) you know. You can cast/manifest whatever you want, and can amplify (augment) the power to make it stronger if you wish, but it takes more power to do so. If you want to use your power to do something big once or twice, that's fine. If you want to do something small but do it all day, that's fine too.

Psionics allows for greater flexibility. It removes the reliance on some archaic system that involves preparing/memorizing spells everyday, only to do it again tomorrow (which always was a bit of a stretch for my taste).

My group plays psionics using the "psionics is magic" concepts,which allows 100% compatibility between the schools ("Dispell..." works on either type, as does "Detect...").

And for the record, the bald, hooded and tattooed psion is no more stereotypical than the long-haired elven archer. Or the bearded, axe-wielding dwarf. You can be as creative or derivative as you like. It's an RPG. For example: my psion is an elven Psionic Trickster (psionic rewrite of the Arcane Trickster PrC from Tome & Blood). Short hair. Wears no armor. No tattoos. Carries a longsword, a bow and a bandoleer containing several different daggers.

hobbes

 

[MDSnowman]

I think it was the other way around: Dark Sun was liked by many pro-psionics gamers because it used Psi, not because they came into Psi via Dark Sun. You may see a lot of pro-psionics gamers taking up the Eberron flag, now, because there's a whole NATION of psionically active people in it.

This I have to disagree with.... when I first bought the original Dark Sun campaign setting I needed to go and hunt down the 2e psionics handbook and learn that system on top of adjusting for all the quirks of Dark Sun. That was how much I liked the setting.... all good memories of Psionics that I have come purely from Dark Sun... with the possible expection of the whole Dungeon/Dragon SNAFU.

As for Eberron, I actually think a whole nation of psionics is one of my least favorite things about the setting. Now that feels tacked on to me... hell I haven't bought the expanded psionics handbook (due in large part to the fact it would make me relieve the nightmare of Dark Sun's "rebirth"). I'm drawn to pretty much every other aspect of Eberron, but I dont need more psionics in a already memorable setting.

Hence I have a love/hate relationship with psionics, and like any nman in a love hate relationship I try to find alternatives... but I always end up lammenting that "It's not the same..."