Publishers Opinion Of PCGen

[Archimedes]

Incidentally, of all the apes, chimps have the biggest testicle-to-body weight ratio and gorillas have the smallest. It's true.

LF

This would imply that female chimps are the most promiscuous of the apes and that female gorillas are the least. Is that true?

Way, way too tired.

Sam

 

[Le Freeke]

This would imply that female chimps are the most promiscuous of the apes and that female gorillas are the least. Is that true?

Not sure. I don't think testicle size in the male critters has anything to do with female promiscuity though. In gorilla tribes, the silverback is the only male who mates; amongst "his females" there's a pecking order (alpha, beta, delta female, and so on) that determines who gets to mate with the big grump, and that usually happens when they start putting out the right pheromones (or in the case of baboons and chimps, ass swelling and redness.)

The alpha-female structure applies to female chimps also, but in chimp troops there are numerous mating males, not just the alpha (though he gets the hotties with the biggest, reddest bums.)

How's that for a thread hijack? Heheheh.

LF

 

[bushfire]

You know it seems to me, reading this thread, that the problem is that the PCGen guys are a bunch of programmers, with a programming attitude towards the OGL. Not a slam, just an observation.

They are not actually "looking" at the OGL as a spec they have to follow, they are on a "bug hunt" trying to get complient. Instead of starting with the OGL/D20 and actually following the licenses they are trying to "fix" the OGL "bugs" in PCGen.

Everytime someone brings up an OGL/D20 issue that they have missed (some simple and obvious issues), they respond with "we will fix it in the next release", or "oops, we forgot about that" type statements. Inching ever closer to what they think the "user" (Wotc/AV) requires/wants.

What this appears like is that the PCGen crew doesn't really have a basic understanding of the OGL at all, and just are waiting for Wotc/AV to tell them what they have to do or have done wrong. This may not be true, but from this (and other) threads, that is the impression I get.

The guys at PCGen need to *all* sit down and actually read and understand the OGL/D20 license. And I mean *all*, list and code monkeys alike. It isn't all that difficult and there are many resources available for help in understanding the license.

An alterative may be to designiate a "D20 Monkey", to handle all the license issues/questions, I have noticed that quite a few publishers have went this route, freeing the creative folks from having to wade through license issues.

Regardless someone at PCGen needs to understand and be able to apply the license. Think of it as another spec you have to write your code to.

 

[kingpaul]

An alterative may be to designiate a "D20 Monkey", to handle all the license issues/questions, I have noticed that quite a few publishers have went this route, freeing the creative folks from having to wade through license issues.

Y'know, that's probably the best piece of advice I've seen for the PCGen group. Its so obvious that its no wonder they failed their Spot checks.

btw, I'm an engineer by trade and training, so obvious solutions are things I miss all the time as well.

 

[jujutsunerd]

You know it seems to me, reading this thread, that the problem is that the PCGen guys are a bunch of programmers, with a programming attitude towards the OGL. Not a slam, just an observation.

And a very astute one at that...

The guys at PCGen need to *all* sit down and actually read and understand the OGL/D20 license. And I mean *all*, list and code monkeys alike.

While this would probably be the best way, for various assorted reasons it's rather unlikely. (If nothing else we're spread over at least three continents. Which is not to say that we all don't need to increase our understanding of the licenses, we *do* need to do that.

An alterative may be to designiate a "D20 Monkey", to handle all the license issues/questions, I have noticed that quite a few publishers have went this route, freeing the creative folks from having to wade through license issues.

This however should not be a problem, and sounds like a *very* good idea. We would need to find someone to volunteer for it, but a lack of volunteers has never really been a problem in the project. In fact, I have a couple of people in mind that I think I'll want to ask about volunteering. I'll bring this up over on our mailing list and see who falls off the tree.

Regardless someone at PCGen needs to understand and be able to apply the license. Think of it as another spec you have to write your code to.

Now that you put it *that* way...

/Jonas

 

[HellHound]

"Unfortunately not every rule is as clear cut as others"

Unfortunately, the rules they are breaking are QUITE clear cut. All you have to do is read the OGL -ONCE- and follow the directions there.

I fully agree that it SEEMS that PCGen is going about the compliance issue the wrong way. They ALL need to read and understand the OGL and d20 STLs and THEN start working on compliance, instead of attacking the compliance issue one "bug" at a time. Instead of treating them as individual bugs, they should be using the licenses as a checklist.

 

[Leopold]

Re: Re: In my humble opinion

Regarding the deities issue. Do a search throughout the SRD particularly the sections where the deities would be found were it an exact duplicate of the PHB (cleric section, etc.). You will notice they are not in the SRD. Therefore, unless WotC grants a specific license/permission to PCGen, using the deities by name is a no-no. Now- you could remove the names and refer to them as "God of Elves", "God of Dwarves", "God of All Things Not Terribly Evil", etc.... I think ya get the point.

now THAT is a great idea! Although "God with one-eye" is a dead give away..sigh..the price of compliance.

 

[Leopold]

I'm anal, sue me. You probably meant to say you're not "Jane Goodall." Jane Pauley is a Dateline reporter. Goodall did all the seminal behavior studies on pygmy chimps.

In terms of evolutionary advancement, your chart should be:

Monkey
Lemur (a kind of monkey)
Baboon (a kind of monkey)
Gibbon (the lowest of the ape order)
Orangutang (pretty advanced, but not as much as...)
Gorilla (or 'silverback', the alpha male gorilla in a tribe)
Chimpanzee (behind humans, the most advanced ape)

You've got monkeys and apes mixed up - monkeys and apes are in two separate categories, evolutionarily speaking.

Incidentally, of all the apes, chimps have the biggest testicle size-to-body weight ratio and gorillas have the smallest. It's true.

LF

yup it's jane goddall..i must have been watching the news when i thought of jane..

i think it's not evolutionary order, it's sheer size and clout that each one carries.

as for biggest balls to weight ratio...well....that's a new one on me...and....uhmm..hrmm..no comment

 

[Callypsa]

Some PCGen people say "we were always compliant" which is wrong. Others say "we only werent compliant because we were waiting for a dialog with WotC" which doesnt make sense because you dont need to talk to WoT to become compliant. Plus, they said they wont be "sanctioning" things, so there isnt much to wait for. Others say "we never even tried to be compliant, we were always just using general copyright laws and not the OGL" which has its own set of problems but is an admission that they know about the license and have decided not to use it.

There is no consistent position about past compliance.

Wow, no wonder you were confused. I definitely sheds more light on the subject. The first two are completely incorrect. I mean, totally, and completely. I'm not sure who posted them, or where you read them, but I'll bet they weren't Bryan or Mynex, or any other part of the inner circle of PCGen. That's the problem with an all volunteer project. You can't tell people what to do/say, and they go out and say something they think is true, but it's not, because they don't know all the facts. There are a lot of PCGen people out there saying things, but they don't always know what's going on. Bryan, above all, is the one heading up the project, and I'm sure he never claimed compliancy. Ditto with Mynex.

Also, I think the thing about "dialogue" with WotC was misunderstood. From what I understand (And I am NOT part of the inner circle, I only live with part of it!) they were trying to get a dialogue with WotC for the same reason they contacted other publishers. Sort of a heads up, hey we're using your stuff under copyright laws, but if you have a problem with that we'll take it out. Legally they believed they were okay with copyright, but they didn't want to upset anyone needlessly. Which brings me to my next point....

Then they say "we are now getting compliant voluntarily." To which I ask, if you got what you want with copyright law and thought that was a valid position and legally defensible, why change?

Under your "copyright only" argument you got to use all the content and all the splat book stuff and do character creation. Now you have to get compliant, you cant use the splatbook stuff without WotC's permission and you cant do random generation. Why would you go from the first to the second? The one reasonable answer is that when WotC asked you to become compliant it was a "get compliant or else." I think that is what everyone suspects happened. If that isnt the case please let us know.

The now part of the statement is a bit wrong....If you go to the PCGen Yahoo group and go back about a year you will notice that they decided to start down the OGL path over a year ago. I do not claim to know the reason for their decision, except to say that at that point it was a decision made by Bryan and others independent of any outside forces. So, they _have_ been working towards it for a year, it's just slow going because they have to coordinate the efforts of dozens of volunteer coders who don't always have the time to take away from Real Life and devote to coding/lst work. At the same time, a lot of coders only code pieces parts that they WANT to code.....and if they don't want to code it...oh, well. I THINK, and this is just the opinion of a third party Artist Gopher, that the dialogue with WotC caused a sort of chain reaction among the volunteers. They didn't know EXACTLY what WotC might have said, but they were afraid that their pet project would be shut down. That made them _much_ more receptive to Bryan/Mynex/the Inner Circle telling them what needed to be coded to make PCGen OGL.

Also, I don't think PCGen ever stopped believing their copyright position was/is completely legal and defensible in a court of law. They just know that they are a volunteer project, run by poor gamers. Regardless if they were legally defenseable or not, they didn't want it to come to that because:

a. They couldn't very well afford a legal battle, no matter how protracted.

b. why piss off WotC needlessly when we could change it and basically make everybody happy?

I guess I hope that in some way these comments have helped you guys get compliant. As I have said at least two or three times on this thread I think that PCGen fills a great need for the gaming public and I wish you guys luck.

As I said before, if you have any issues regarding compliance, please go ahead and contact me via email (clark@necromancergames.com). In fact, have your attorney contact me. I would love to discuss this with him or her.

Clark

I think your comments have helped _enormously_. I do think some of the _early_ ones were a bit on the aggresive side, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you let PCGen know your issues and now they can address them. Especially I think you've clarified some of the confusing things that are being said about PCGen that may not be true. It's very hard to confirm what is and isn't fact, especially out here on the net, and I hope my thoughts have helped, even a little bit. I, for one, thank you for continuing to post on this thread even after people started dogging on you.

Disclaimer
I am not an official spokesmonkey for PCGen. I am just the Artist Wench who draws the monkies. I do not code, I only incidentally dabble in list files, I am not privy to all knowledge concerning the future of PCGen. The previous has only been my evaluation of certain issues, some understanding of which I have due to my living situation. (ie. Rooming with one of the inner circle) This is all my opinion, and nothing more. Please treat it as such.

 

[Grazzt]

Re: Re: Re: In my humble opinion

now THAT is a great idea! Although "God with one-eye" is a dead give away..sigh..the price of compliance.

How about "God of the Orcs"?