Publishers Opinion Of PCGen
- Thread starter Knightcrawler
- Start date
- Status
Hastursaur
First Post
Mynex said:
OK. Sorry but I am still confused. When you wrote-
Mynex said:
What did you mean that you are using it for a test case of?
BTW I wish you well in your efforts.
Orcus said:
In short, by becoming D20/OGL compliant, we then have everything in order to include ALL the D20 publishers without issue, such as you (when you are satisfied we're clean)... Even omitting one source of D20 from the users is hurting them in my opinion...
The Functionality we've had to pull is painful yes, but we have several other 'irons in the fire' to help alleviate the pain of their loss... Essentially, a set/series/whatnot of tools that would be OGL compliant that would work with PCGen... By keeping PCGen Bland and without the interactive part as WotC is defining things, it's a safe venue for marketting for publishers, makes them happy and warm and fuzzy inside, Users get to make characters (yea, they still have to roll dice, but hey, that's the fun part.
) and we can make other tools to address what we've had to rip out of PCGen... The other tools would not have any data/list files with them, they would simply use the data/list files to be useful.... Die Rolling, combat initiative, etc.. things that qualify as OGL but not D20 compliant. That's still in the works though, so we have to see where things go with PCGen 1st before we aim for anything more...Hastursaur said:
Ah, yes, sorry.. we're using the SRD to create the list/data files that we will be sending to Wizards to check everything out... if that data/list set is approved, then it will be the basis for the _format_ of _how_ we do the remaining list files.
That clearer?
Hastursaur
First Post
Mynex said:
Yes, thank you for your patience with me. Trying to grasp all of this with the great many, somtimes conflicting, opinions of the many PCGen volunteers has been difficult for me. I think you are on the right track and I hope that your many volunteers recognize that they can help the most by leaving representation of PCGen to you and Bryan.
BTW Is Bryan AKA Tyr?
Hastursaur said:
Heh, I do tech support for a living... translating from techno-babble to something resembling English is what I have to do to earn a paycheck.
But I will most definately be the 1st to admit I can blow my gasket when I percieve things in the wrong manner, I am human. Well, as long as you don't listen to anyone else on the subject (including Bryan!
)No, Tir is not Bryan...Bryan's Handle is Merton Monk. I'll talk to him tonight and get him to post a 'hi all' message so everyone can then pester him with questions as well.
Tir Gwaith
First Post
Hastursaur said:
No, Bryan is NOT Tir Gwaith..
I'm just a data junkie. I'm the one doing most of the SRD checks for our data files, freeing up Mynex to do the talking/PR/contacting. Missing the deities made me feel _really_ dumb. I shouldn't have missed that one. Any other data concerns that ppl have, please address them to me (or Mynex, he'll pass them on to me.
) The more people looking that catch things, the sooner everything will be Kosher. Ok, this Monkey is going back to work.
my 2 cents
fter staying out of the forums for a while I get back in and see the thread, so i read it, all 5 pages of it. Naturally I get upset at a few of the posts, but I’ve cooled back down and most of the things I have problems with have been clarified.
1. I have used the program since the beginning, I wrote the original files for the equipment, and all of the original ones for star wars. (That’s why it took weeks to find all the typos) I have just about every d20 book out there, from just about every publisher. I want to be able to use them without spending 4 hours with my players making characters here cause they have to read each book, and fine each reference. The program lets them take it, but under the old program it gave me the feat name, and prerequisites, and maybe a short sentence on what it does. No rules, no information to penalties, how it can be applied, nothing. That’s the way they intended it. There moving to OGL, once done my spell info can hold the whole text of the spell rather than the basic info, same for feats, abilities and such. This is why I see the change.
2. Not a flame, or incendiary but for everyone that has a problem with how fast there moving to ogl/d20. You wrote a book, say 100 pages, you checked the whole thing, you did this several times (in general, writing several more books) now imagine you have a dozen books you have to go through (I know they don’t have the whole book, but enough parts of much more than a dozen), checking the whole thing, plus almost as much code. Oh and you get to do this for no more than a hour a day, 5 days a week, how fast do you think you would get it done? then while working on it, fearing that your going to get in trouble for it, realize you have WebPages, and a front end that needs to be checked. it takes time, give it to them, they may have 45 lst monkeys, but probably 40 of them are those that said “I want so and so’s book such and such put into pcgen,, and got a put it in yourself or wait for a volunteer, so they coded one book, there not active in others, reducing their numbers. then take the coders and apply the same thing. I think this highlights the idea, and shows why its taking so long, add in to that last years worth of work that went toward user friendliness, including a total rework of every tab and they’ve been busy monkeys.
3. Once it is ocl/d20 technically they don’t need anyone's permission to put in any OGL info, even if you were clever enough to close content the names but not the meat of something, I can call them feat 1, feat 2 and include everything it has for each feat, then cross it out on my sheet and make it say the name. The point is they have always tried to be company friendly they have always tried to stay on good sides. The present misinformation and chaos was cause pcgen as a whole worried about how the heck to code a new class ability form a new book, etc. now they are changing, give them time, erase all previous concepts of them and let them start fresh.
I think this thread has been great for pcgen's public image, and I hope everyone on here lets things slide, we all change our minds, and from now on I hope you let us change the negative opinions.
P.S. I am looking forward to characters with spell’s having the character sheet give all info, but darn will I miss hitting the button time and again to roll stats.
by the way i aint got no aprt of pcgen anymore, i aint no ficial spokesman for dem, nor iz i a expert, just a guy.
this was edited cause i cant spell at all when typeing (except for the sentence above.
fter staying out of the forums for a while I get back in and see the thread, so i read it, all 5 pages of it. Naturally I get upset at a few of the posts, but I’ve cooled back down and most of the things I have problems with have been clarified.
1. I have used the program since the beginning, I wrote the original files for the equipment, and all of the original ones for star wars. (That’s why it took weeks to find all the typos) I have just about every d20 book out there, from just about every publisher. I want to be able to use them without spending 4 hours with my players making characters here cause they have to read each book, and fine each reference. The program lets them take it, but under the old program it gave me the feat name, and prerequisites, and maybe a short sentence on what it does. No rules, no information to penalties, how it can be applied, nothing. That’s the way they intended it. There moving to OGL, once done my spell info can hold the whole text of the spell rather than the basic info, same for feats, abilities and such. This is why I see the change.
2. Not a flame, or incendiary but for everyone that has a problem with how fast there moving to ogl/d20. You wrote a book, say 100 pages, you checked the whole thing, you did this several times (in general, writing several more books) now imagine you have a dozen books you have to go through (I know they don’t have the whole book, but enough parts of much more than a dozen), checking the whole thing, plus almost as much code. Oh and you get to do this for no more than a hour a day, 5 days a week, how fast do you think you would get it done? then while working on it, fearing that your going to get in trouble for it, realize you have WebPages, and a front end that needs to be checked. it takes time, give it to them, they may have 45 lst monkeys, but probably 40 of them are those that said “I want so and so’s book such and such put into pcgen,, and got a put it in yourself or wait for a volunteer, so they coded one book, there not active in others, reducing their numbers. then take the coders and apply the same thing. I think this highlights the idea, and shows why its taking so long, add in to that last years worth of work that went toward user friendliness, including a total rework of every tab and they’ve been busy monkeys.
3. Once it is ocl/d20 technically they don’t need anyone's permission to put in any OGL info, even if you were clever enough to close content the names but not the meat of something, I can call them feat 1, feat 2 and include everything it has for each feat, then cross it out on my sheet and make it say the name. The point is they have always tried to be company friendly they have always tried to stay on good sides. The present misinformation and chaos was cause pcgen as a whole worried about how the heck to code a new class ability form a new book, etc. now they are changing, give them time, erase all previous concepts of them and let them start fresh.
I think this thread has been great for pcgen's public image, and I hope everyone on here lets things slide, we all change our minds, and from now on I hope you let us change the negative opinions.
P.S. I am looking forward to characters with spell’s having the character sheet give all info, but darn will I miss hitting the button time and again to roll stats.
by the way i aint got no aprt of pcgen anymore, i aint no ficial spokesman for dem, nor iz i a expert, just a guy.
this was edited cause i cant spell at all when typeing (except for the sentence above.
Last edited:
DM
First Post
Questions for clarification. Facts first, questions last.
As taken from the d20 license:
“Interactive Game": means a piece of computer gaming software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users.
Could this be any broader? This definition sounds like it could any piece of software that has a dice roller in it. That just about every DM “helper” program out there. Continuing with a blurb off of the Wizards d20 FAQs:
Q: Does the definition of an "Interactive Game" preclude me from creating a character generator?
A: As long as you don't actually use any of the rules of the game to calculate a result, no, it does not. However, the prohibition against including rules for character creation in a work using the d20 System Trademark probably will.
Are you kidding? How can you create a character for a game system without using its rules to govern how one applies the result to the character? But this isn’t my question. Let me continue:
Q: Does the definition of an "Interactive Game" preclude me from creating a piece of software that helps DMs adjudicate combat?
A: Yes.
Q: Does the definition of an "Interactive Game" preclude me from creating an online RPG, MUD, MUSH, MOO, etc.?
A: Yes.
So the last piece of “evidence” is again form the d20 license:
You may not use the D20 System License or the D20 System Logo in conjunction with any product that meets the definition of an "Interactive Game" as defined in this Guide.
So, my question(s) are:
1) How can any piece of software, including PCGen, Twin Rose, ect, use the d20 logo and be compliant when the d20 license specifies that “Interactive Game(s)” by definition cannot?
2) Isn’t d20 just a brand distinction saying “This stuff is used with Wizard’s stuff. By me, you know the rules!”
3) If PCGen didn’t claim to be d20 compliant, why “force” them when the claim was never there to begin with?
4) Is the fact that PCGen is changing to become more compliant a means by attracting publishers to them?
5) Does non-compliance mean “bad” or “irresponsible” to publishers?
6) With the virtual inability to be licensed under the d20 system, by definition, what about the OGL? Does it apply to software or just the data files within?
7) So, was the problem with PCGen that they were using SDR, OGL and d20 material without be OGL/d20 compliant? If so, where is that said in the licensing agreement(s) that you have to be?
I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but things still don’t quite make sense, yet (yea, I know, I’m thick-headed). Thanks for any clarification anyone can give.
As taken from the d20 license:
“Interactive Game": means a piece of computer gaming software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users.
Could this be any broader? This definition sounds like it could any piece of software that has a dice roller in it. That just about every DM “helper” program out there. Continuing with a blurb off of the Wizards d20 FAQs:
Q: Does the definition of an "Interactive Game" preclude me from creating a character generator?
A: As long as you don't actually use any of the rules of the game to calculate a result, no, it does not. However, the prohibition against including rules for character creation in a work using the d20 System Trademark probably will.
Are you kidding? How can you create a character for a game system without using its rules to govern how one applies the result to the character? But this isn’t my question. Let me continue:
Q: Does the definition of an "Interactive Game" preclude me from creating a piece of software that helps DMs adjudicate combat?
A: Yes.
Q: Does the definition of an "Interactive Game" preclude me from creating an online RPG, MUD, MUSH, MOO, etc.?
A: Yes.
So the last piece of “evidence” is again form the d20 license:
You may not use the D20 System License or the D20 System Logo in conjunction with any product that meets the definition of an "Interactive Game" as defined in this Guide.
So, my question(s) are:
1) How can any piece of software, including PCGen, Twin Rose, ect, use the d20 logo and be compliant when the d20 license specifies that “Interactive Game(s)” by definition cannot?
2) Isn’t d20 just a brand distinction saying “This stuff is used with Wizard’s stuff. By me, you know the rules!”
3) If PCGen didn’t claim to be d20 compliant, why “force” them when the claim was never there to begin with?
4) Is the fact that PCGen is changing to become more compliant a means by attracting publishers to them?
5) Does non-compliance mean “bad” or “irresponsible” to publishers?
6) With the virtual inability to be licensed under the d20 system, by definition, what about the OGL? Does it apply to software or just the data files within?
7) So, was the problem with PCGen that they were using SDR, OGL and d20 material without be OGL/d20 compliant? If so, where is that said in the licensing agreement(s) that you have to be?
I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but things still don’t quite make sense, yet (yea, I know, I’m thick-headed). Thanks for any clarification anyone can give.
Twin Rose
First Post
Re: Questions for clarification. Facts first, questions last.
Since I was specifically mentioned, I'll take a moment to answer this question, as it pertains to Campaign Suite and my D20 Logo. This is not legal advice, nor is it intended to represent what Wizard's of the Coast, owners of the OGL and d20STL may actually believe.
Success and failure does not include scaler rolls. If I have a table, and I have a roll, it's up to me as an individual to interpret the results. I can put the table and the roll side by side, and common sense would lead me to the result, but an interactive game would simply tell me the result without showing me the table or the roll.
The d20 Logo indicates compatiblity with other D20 products.
"D20 Character Stuff" by using the term "D20" in marketting, you automatically fall under the acceptance clause of the d20stl. Once you do that, you have to follow the license.
I can't speak on this, as I have no direct knowledge of the PCGen teams personal thoughts. However, as I understand it, WOTC began looking into and cataloging all software products that they considered in acceptance of the d20 STL. Likely, they were told that they were, in fact, falling under the license and therefore had to begin living up to it.
To many, yes. If they allow the use of their "Open Content" to be used in a manner that doesn't follow the license, there is potential that it could be lost or that they could be seen as "irresponsible".
Depends on how you define your works.
See above.
No, I don't see it that way at all. A lot of people have had a lot of questions, of myself and my team, as well as the PCGen team. The scope of the license was not meant to cover software. I happened to make a piece of 'generic software' that was smart enough that, when the right data-files were used, it became a d20 covered product. Further extrapolation of this is that I do know I wrote the first software product with a d20 logo on the cover... For what that's worth
Since I was specifically mentioned, I'll take a moment to answer this question, as it pertains to Campaign Suite and my D20 Logo. This is not legal advice, nor is it intended to represent what Wizard's of the Coast, owners of the OGL and d20STL may actually believe.
DM said:
Success and failure does not include scaler rolls. If I have a table, and I have a roll, it's up to me as an individual to interpret the results. I can put the table and the roll side by side, and common sense would lead me to the result, but an interactive game would simply tell me the result without showing me the table or the roll.
The d20 Logo indicates compatiblity with other D20 products.
"D20 Character Stuff" by using the term "D20" in marketting, you automatically fall under the acceptance clause of the d20stl. Once you do that, you have to follow the license.
I can't speak on this, as I have no direct knowledge of the PCGen teams personal thoughts. However, as I understand it, WOTC began looking into and cataloging all software products that they considered in acceptance of the d20 STL. Likely, they were told that they were, in fact, falling under the license and therefore had to begin living up to it.
To many, yes. If they allow the use of their "Open Content" to be used in a manner that doesn't follow the license, there is potential that it could be lost or that they could be seen as "irresponsible".
Depends on how you define your works.
See above.
No, I don't see it that way at all. A lot of people have had a lot of questions, of myself and my team, as well as the PCGen team. The scope of the license was not meant to cover software. I happened to make a piece of 'generic software' that was smart enough that, when the right data-files were used, it became a d20 covered product. Further extrapolation of this is that I do know I wrote the first software product with a d20 logo on the cover... For what that's worth
- Status
Similar Threads
