Publishers Opinion Of PCGen

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm not the only pcgen user who only buys from d20 publishers who are working with pcgen. By cutting yourself off from pcgen, you cut yourself off from some of your potential customers. (I don't mean that as a threat, it's a matter of convenience for me: I use pcgen for all of my d20 character and npc building, so I'm not going to buy products that can't be used with the d20 gaming tool which I use)

My concern as a publisher is that the number of people who won't buy my products unless they are in PCGen is significantly LESS than the number of folks who won't bother to buy my products because they are in PCGen. I think that's the most realistic view.

Which is somewhat of an irrational fear in my case, I must admit, since 99% of the digestible content in my books is Open Content. (My opinion is that the books are well worth the $10 bucks for the presentation and the joy of owning printed matter-- but then, I like books, and presumably the average PCGen user does not.)

But since I have gone to the trouble of making that content open thru the OGL, I would at the very least appreciate that PCGen be OGL compliant.

Wulf

 

[smetzger]

Now that's where i'm confused, why is the CC not a product (they even made a PDF) and PcGen is? Why can't PcGen not fall under "internet fan-based publications"? Maybe i'm dense, but i'm not really seeing a difference here...

Actually I don't think the distinction of not being a 'product' is what made CC legal. CC was legal because it was a conversion of previous D&D rules to the 3e ruleset. In the begining WOTC had said something to the effect of "go ahead and make all the conversions you want, we will not take legal action against you". Because the names of many of the monsters are PI to WOTC it would have been impossible to use just straight OGL, so Scott used the informal agreement from WOTC regarding converted material. However, WOTC changed this with the ESD Conversion agreement. This agreement stipulated that one must use the OGL and gave the converter permission to use WOTC PI in a converted product (with some restrictions). Therefore, at no point was Scott doing anything illegal.

Conclusions from this discussion:
1) PCGen has not been clear in the past about how they were trying to do things legally. I am still unsure how they thought they were legal. I have heard alot of things, even that they were compliant with OGL. However, since no-one at PCGen can point to a pre-existing document that explains their legality prior to PCGen 3.0 its all controversial and unsubstantiated.

2) PCGen is now trying to use d20 and the OGL. However, as of PCGen 3.1 they are not completly compliant.

 

[Grazzt]

Now that's where i'm confused, why is the CC not a product (they even made a PDF) and PcGen is? Why can't PcGen not fall under "internet fan-based publications"? Maybe i'm dense, but i'm not really seeing a difference here...

Because the fan-site policy didnt cover software. Software is a product. My site (including the downloads) is not. The downloads were considered document-type publications which fell under the policy. (And just in case it comes up, the PDF compilations are gone...but not because WotC asked me to remove them. They were removed pending the release of the Tome of Horrors...which is a product )

 

[Grazzt]

Sorry :-} I went back and changed the post in question to an appology (and explanation).

No problems. Thanks for relaxing. It's all good.

 

[Grazzt]

why is it then that other OGL users are complaining to the PcGen group about their non-compliance at the moment?

Because "nod" or no "nod" from WotC, it isn't cool to distribute while not compliant? That is the feeling I get (from reading the posts here and in talking with others outside of here).

 

[smetzger]

Quesiton to PCGen folks: did WotC or did they not give permission to use their material when you first started using it? That single issue has a great bearing on my personal view of the situation, and, depending on which way you answer, pretty much negates 50% of the posts in this thread (whichever 50% they may be).

More specifically. Did they give you permission to use PI? Did they give you permission to use stuff that happened to be in the SRD, without publishing under OGL/d20?

Morrus - this is one reason why I do not think a publisher should contact another publisher for permission to use OGC material. Its too easy for a misunderstanding to occur and for one party to think they have given permission to use the material under OGL/d20 while the other party now thinks they have permission to use the material outside of OGL/d20. On the other hand informing someone of your intent to use would be polite.

 

[okuth0r]

the thread.

The main problem is most of the feedback so far about pcgen (from publishers or not) has been "they are the devil, you are not OGL compliant, never have been and have only lied and tempted good gamers off the path of the Holy OGL" (yes that is joke, basically they expect everyone to run ogl)

Hashed over and over again is wether they follow it. Sept 12, 2001 is the first actual post i can find on the yahoogroup, it specifically states that pcgen DOES NOT follow the ogl (belived origionally and correctly the OGL does not pertian to programs), but copyright laws.

ANALOGY:
You want to drive a car, you do not have a license, you sit in a car. While sitting in the car you are arrested for driveing without a licence. The copyright laws are the car, and the OGL is a drivers licensce. You DO NOT need to use the OGL (driveing the car) to use some of the material from the SRD (sitting in the car), but it is the easiest way to use it. (I was trying to show people are trying to apply rules that clearly do not apply, expecially since sitting in the car, meaning useing the material, they never declared when they got in the car they were going to drive, use the D20/OGL)

I am rehashing this point because some people think the opposite. well you can think that, however PCGEN took the stance at first they follow the copyright laws, and still do. Wether this is legal or not would be for a court of law, and we will never find out because there are many lawyers, with many interpretations, its a judges decision that sets precedent, However unless this happoned they are NOT saying now or have ever that they followed the D20/OGL, therefore holding them to that license is not valid. Pcgen is moveing to D20 (program) and OGL (datafiles), so this will never come up.

As for stopping distribution youre trying to hold the program and the people behind it to a standard they have NEVER claimed to hold, and removeing a tool from thousands of people.

ANALOGY:
WotC decides that to post news material that references Speljammer or any gameing material related to, you much include links to Wotc, hasbro, the ogl/d20, include a popup disclamer for each notice.
EnWorld now must come down untill everything is updated, what, there is no current Spelljammer notes as mail? you still must take down the site, for several months, as you go through the archives to make it compliant.

(you would loose readers, fans, and probably few would come back. but you see how it does not apply, you currently (less im going blind) have nothing posted to spelljammer, so you need not change anything.)
Pcgen HAS NEVER claimed to be OGL, so thier change to it in no ways means they should stop allowing the current copyright covered download.

Now if we could start a new thread, and have publisher post thier now educated opinions (since they now have no leg to say pcgen has been shady, was never compliant, did not follow OGL, now letting them decide if they like it as a program), i belive we should hold this open (maby closed to posting), as reference.

Now i will shut up, as im just a peon, and will allways be a peon. (in otherwords not currently part of pcgen's inner circle)

By the way Mynex if you want a good laugh (least i thought so) ask Bryan about walking into a attack of opportunity (its about message 60 something in the group) long ago.

 

[kzin]

How is this statement compatible with:

Let me rephrase those two paragraphs in a more chronological order, as I think that's where the confusion in those two statements came from (and, again, this is from my having been an observer/user):

1) PCGen starts using material in a manner they considered compliant with copyright laws.

2) At some point, it was decided to go one step further than that and contact publishers to ask their permission to include data based upon their products in PCGen's data files (essentially, obtaining a license to their material which was independant of the OGL); attempts were made to contact those whose material was already in PCGen as well as contacting new publishers before their material was added.

3) If publishers responded with an objection, their material was removed.

4) WOTC was either unresposive, or PCGen had difficulty finding/establishing contact with someone with authority in the matter at WOTC.

5) Some members of the PCGen team went to GenCon, as did some members of WOTC. Both apparently were seeking eachother out to establish a dialog. When the right people finally connected, PCGen essentially said "Can we get your permission to include data that is based upon your products in our datafiles?" WOTC countered with "we'll talk to you about using our products AFTER you become compliant with both the OGL and d20STL."

6) PCGen is now transitioning away from assumption #1 (I think) and toward OGL compliance in its data files, and d20STL compliance in the program. I don't know how that affects the seperate permission/license already obtained from some publishers.

Again, that's my observation, I'm not trying to speak for the official PCGen people, and I welcome corrections to that timeline.

Quesiton to PCGen folks:

I just wanted to say here that I'm specifically not responding to this part cuz I think it's a question for the official pcgen people and not us mere fans/users/badgers. Plus, I have no idea whether or not a previous agreement with WOTC did or did not exist.

 

[Mynex]

A) PCGen is not trying to claim copyright law at this point. They are following the OGL. They are not compliant, at this time, with the license and hope to be before the 30 day grace period is completed.

uh, Chris, where are you getting this from? No one, and I mean no one has ever stated we've gotten a 30 day. Very simply we were asked to stop distributing the Wizards Non-SRD materials. the rest of it is/was/has been entirely up to us. I'm sure that if we don't get things all fixed up in the next release or 2 we will, but we haven't gotten one at this time.

D) The "PCGen Fanatics" are often out of line in their attacks on other products, or to publishers who do not readily agree to license their work to the core program. This creates a feeling of 'animosity' where a given publisher gets tired of emails saying, "why won't you let them do your work???" and in many cases they believe these messages come from the core "crew".

This is very true and I and Bryan are making an active attempt to stop this nonsense. We really didn't see it much until lately *wry* can't imagine why (an no I'm not referring to this thread).

These kinds of rabid defenders are most definately not doing us any favors, or making life easier when dealing with people/companies that have legitimate questions about PCGen.

 

[okuth0r]

Conclusions from this discussion:
1) PCGen has not been clear in the past about how they were trying to do things legally. I am still unsure how they thought they were legal. I have heard alot of things, even that they were compliant with OGL. However, since no-one at PCGen can point to a pre-existing document that explains their legality prior to PCGen 3.0 its all controversial and unsubstantiated.

2) PCGen is now trying to use d20 and the OGL. However, as of PCGen 3.1 they are not completly compliant.

1)PCGen has since the end of 1999 use a yahoogroup for most informaitln (bugs and notices) They (pcgen inner circle) do not advertise, therefor posting anywhere else was not done. Repeatedly on the yahoogroup they have stated they do not follow teh OGL/D20. It just never got out to you guys, now it is.

2) GRRRR, Rumble, head explodes. PCGen is NOT CURRENTLY CLAIMING D20/OGL COMPLIANCE. Point me to one statement by Mynex, or bryan Roberts her or on thier yahoogroup, or thier homepage, or sourceforge. IT DOES NOT EXSIST.

This is waht is geting the fans riled up, sacus misinformation is spoiling PCGens good name. This needs to be cleared up as It is not correct, and spoils teh opinions of other publishers (which is the whole point of the forum)