Punishing Player Creativity?

[dreaded_beast]

Before I start, I know that there is a difference between "player creativity" and player's trying to "bend the rules".

However, what do you do when you try something, as a player, that you believe is being creative, but the DM doesn't? I have a DM that frowns upon player creativity, in my opinion, so much so that some of us are afraid to try anything new, that isn't described in the core books.

It feels as if we are being, as one poster put it, punished for our creativity.

So what do you consider creative vs. rule-breaking?

or

How do you be creative with a creative-resistant DM?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Can I ask for a few examples? It might help to know what you consider "creative" while the DM considers "rule-bending."

 

[Skade]

I love when a player comes up with a solution or action I had not thought of, or is unorthodox. If there is not a specific rule to cover the situation I make one up on the spot, finding a skill or action similar and basing it on that. I'll often reward them with xp, or more often some kind of in game reaction or result based on their action.

I do not, however, allow players to abuse rules by taking them past the point of logic. I'll allow a player to try and persuade me to a point, but if I feel its disruptive or a dangerous precedent I won't allow it.

 

[Dirigible]

Seconded, Skade.

 

[Emiricol]

Like Dirigible, I'm in with Skade on this one (as are most DMs I would imagine, though I can't speak for them). And of course all of that is very subjective! The DM's subjectivity. I think examples would definitely help

 

[Buttercup]

So what do you consider creative vs. rule-breaking?

I'll join the chorus and ask for examples from you of this creativity that your DM doesn't like.

Personally, I would consider an action "creative" if it was a new use for a skill or item, an unusual tactic or something along those lines. Having said that, I'm sure that a determined player can abuse just about any rule or concept if they really try. Unless the DM stops them, of course.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The problem, I think, is that a lot of players feel that if they come up with an interesting or creative action, that it should automatically succeed, or have a greater chance to succeed, simply because it is creative. I don't DM that way. I love creative actions/solutions, but that doesn't mean that they're going to work.

Take a player who is standing upon the railing of a second-story balcony overlooking a ballroom.

Player: I want to leap out from the balcony, catch hold of the tapestry hanging on one wall, and drag it down with me so that it falls over the guards' heads while I land on my feet, unentangled, a few feet away.

Me: Wow! That's neat, Bob! Really creative! Okay, so you want to leap off the balcony and grab hold of the tapestry--so that's about ten feet out, and a standing jump since you'll have to leap from the railing...so a DC 24 Jump check. Now when you get hold of the tapestry, you're going to want to kick off from the wall so that you pull the tapestry out and over the guards' heads, so let's say a DC 15 Tumble check.

Player: I rolled a 16 on my Jump check.

Me: Too bad. Okay then, you leap out, but you don't manage to reach the tapestry, and fall into the guards below. Make a Tumble check to avoid falling damage.

Player: *muttering* That was a really creative idea. It should have worked!

Also, sometimes players come up with creative ideas that not only aren't in the Core Rules, but go against the Core Rules.

Player: I want to use a Magic Missile to hit the orc's belt buckle, so his pants fall down and he gets embarrassed!

Me: Magic Missile can't target a particular spot on the orc. It just hits him in the chest. Disintegrate could do it, with an additional +8 AC because you're targetting a Tiny-sized object. Maybe Melf's Acid Arrow...

Player: But I don't know those spells!

Me: Well then, you can't target that belt buckle.

Player: *muttering* You just don't like people who think outside the box...

Creative ideas are things that are cool, aren't normally thought of, take resources and use them in new ways. But players have to recognize that a lot of these ideas aren't common exactly because they're hard to pull off.

As far as a DM who simply doesn't allow creative ideas, how exactly does he put the kibosh on them and punish you? Does he simply say "no, that wouldn't work"...?

 

[Dirigible]

The problem, I think, is that a lot of players feel that if they come up with an interesting or creative action, that it should automatically succeed, or have a greater chance to succeed, simply because it is creative. I don't DM that way. I love creative actions/solutions, but that doesn't mean that they're going to work.

Not playing Exalted, then? Or a swashbuckling genre game? Or Starwars?

I never considered this before; is there a Hard Fantasy subgenre and a Soft Fantasy subgenre, as with Sci Fi?

edit: Oh, of course there is. Midnight vs 7th Sea. Warlords of the Accordians vs Exalted. Grim'n'Gritty vs High Fantasy.

Never mind then. Answered my own question.

In any case, I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with your (apparently) rules-accurate interpretation of the above events, Pendragon; but surely you see that for some games and settings an idea that is dramatic and cool should be more likely to suceed, just for that.

 

[Umbran]

but surely you see that for some games and settings an idea that is dramatic and cool should be more likely to suceed, just for that.

For some games, yes. Feng Shui, for example, in which the rules explicitly state that you get a bonus for the truely dramatic and cool action. But D&D isn't Feng Shui...

Plus, frequently enough the creative solution is not the dramatic one. Creative solutions are often the ones that avoid drama - the player gets creative in order to avoid dangerous conflict. In such cases, even Feng Shui isn't gonna help.

 

[Magius del Cotto]

Lets see... IMO, there are two different types of creative ideas: Ones that are for effect (let's sneak in through the sewers), and ones that are showy (the pulling the tapestry down is a good example of that). The ones for effect make things easier, avoiding common chokepoints, or finding a way that no one would have thought about before. The showy ones are the ones that, if they work, makes everyone sit back and say, "Whoah, that was cool." They are, by default, a lot more difficult to pull off, though players often seem to be unable to see that...
Let's look at a few examples:
Climbing the wizards tower without using rope to avoid the defenses around the entrance: Creative. It may be difficult as all get out to make it all the way up, but it saves more trouble than it makes, especially if you have a caster with a Stone to Mud spell handy.

Trying to rope a monster that is about twice the size you are: Well, that would fall more into the "stupid" category than anything else, but it's more a "for show" action. Chances are, you're going to get dragged around quite a bit.

Swinging across the room on a rope to attack the evil prince: For show. While it may be a good way to attack from an unexpected angle, it is more show than anything else, and should reflect that.

Erm... I really can't think of any other examples off the top of my head, but that should be a good start.
Of course, all of these have, or probably will, happened in games that I've run or been in (the "Rope a monster" one in one that I ran - the character ended up the worse for wear. Of course, other members in the group ended up grabbing him and keeping him in an ornate birdcage - that they welded shut. It is a fairly long story...).
Magius out.