Punishing Player Creativity?

[Magius del Cotto]

As I see it, there are three types of creativity here. 1) Dramatic creativity, 2) Creative problem solving, and 3) Rule-manipulating creativity. I love the first two, but restrict the latter.

If only there were more people that tried to use the first two. The group I'm playing in right now has a DM that never gets to play. It's not so much that he's a particularly good DM, its the fact that none of us can stand to have him as one of the players. He reads through the rules specifically looking for loopholes to exploit, he argues with the DM constantly that such-and-such an ability is more powerful than it actually is (arguing that Shapeshift is not as powerful as he says it is is a real pain), and the metagame barrier is so thin to him that it's almost non-existant. He keeps troll gut with a character that has never heard of trolls before, he treats a grapple check (with some shapeshift stuff thrown on) as a means for controlling another character, and he lassoes monsters that are more than twice his size (yes, he's that player). What's sad is that he expects everyone else to do the same.
I will admit that I've had my rules disputes with him (as a player), but it's nowhere near as much of a pain as it is when he's a player... Of course, he's only one of three 'dangerous players' in the group I'm in.
I would consider myself a dangerous player mostly because my learning experience for D&D was with a very munchkiny 2e group, and, even though I sat in the back all the time, some of the tactics did slip through.
I also understand the rules well enough that I can take several different suboptimal choices, and milk them for everything they're worth. Of course, I tend to throw GMs tons of plot hooks as I do that, but still...
A third problem player is the benign powergamer-min/maxer. He uses everything within the rules to gather as much power as possible. No deed is too evil for him to consider, and the only thing keeping him in line with our main campaign is the fact that two of the characters (a paladin and a ranger) will tolerate no evil acts - if he tries something that we think is downright wrong, we will try to stop him; kill him if necissary, and we've both told him quite plainly about it...
Sorry for the rant, but I had to get it off my chest. I'd like to play with a group that valued creativity of the kind I value (complex characters that are effective and interesting), but I play with a pair of powergamers.
Um... yeah...
Magius out.

 

[Altalazar]

I like player creativity - it has often led some of the most memorable moments of my campaigns. I make appropriate DRs and skill checks, but unless there is really good reason not to, I give them a sporting chance of succeeding.

One of my favorites was when the party was still relatively low level - and faced a beholder (or beholder-kin, I forget which). They really didn't have a good way to hurt it - it was floating up near a high ceiling, just out of reach, and they lacked effective missile weapons or ranged spells. They wanted to somehow grapple it and bring it down to the floor so they could melee it. They didn't have a grappling hook. Solution: The halfling! The two strong fighter types tied a rope around the halfling, then then both picked him up and threw him up at the beholder - the halfling then grabbed onto it, and the whole party then grabbed the rope and pulled it down to the floor, using the "halfling" grappling hook. There they killed it rather easily.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Oh, now that halfling-grapple, that's just beautiful. He probably wouldn't survive that stunt, but man, it just might work.

I suppose part of my ultimate fundamental problem with cinematic and dramatic moves succeeding is that I don't like the players using something outside the rules to get an advantage over NPCs. Whatever the players can do, the NPCs should be able to do with equal chances of success. The only exception to this is my current experiment with the Swashbuckling Cards, but I'm self-justifying it by having the campaign be more unforgiving and deadly than usual.

I suppose, though, that as a DM you have to cater to your players to a certain extent. My players like the feeling that their characters rise to greatness not because of some inherent superiority to the other people in the campaign world, but through determination, tactics, and luck. They refuse to tell me how many HP they have left because I might pull some punches. They consider it their job to keep their character alive and successful, not mine.

OTOH, some other groups of players might not see the point of playing if their character isn't in some way fundamentally superior to NPCs - their dramatic moves work better, they never quite seem to die, and they "randomly" find magic stuff that perfectly compliments their style and abilities. If that's what they need to have fun with D&D, then they should join a like-minded group and go for it.

 

[KidCthulhu]

Got to agree with Doc, here. Sounds like your DM is a very insecure person, afraid of change or situations he hasn't considered in advance. Talking to him might work. Or you might try running a game yourself one evening, using a more improvisational system like Paranoia or Feng Shui, or even D&D with a more swashbuckling feel. If your DM sees how much fun it can be to be creative, and that it doesn't ruin the game, he might be willing to give it a try himself.

Good luck.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Got to agree with Doc, here. Sounds like your DM is a very insecure person, afraid of change or situations he hasn't considered in advance. Talking to him might work. Or you might try running a game yourself one evening, using a more improvisational system like Paranoia or Feng Shui, or even D&D with a more swashbuckling feel. If your DM sees how much fun it can be to be creative, and that it doesn't ruin the game, he might be willing to give it a try himself.

Good luck.

I concur. The real problem is the DM fears loss of control over the game. He quashes your "weird" ideas to keep you in your place. In the worst cases this will spiral into a running battle of players vs. DM, which is less fun and exhausting for everyone involved.

The best solution is to GM a more open game with the GM plays along with the players. There is no substitute for showing him. Besides, given a DM a chance to play often gets their creative juices flowing again and helps them loosen up.

 

[Altalazar]

I concur. The real problem is the DM fears loss of control over the game. He quashes your "weird" ideas to keep you in your place. In the worst cases this will spiral into a running battle of players vs. DM, which is less fun and exhausting for everyone involved.

The best solution is to GM a more open game with the GM plays along with the players. There is no substitute for showing him. Besides, given a DM a chance to play often gets their creative juices flowing again and helps them loosen up.

Yes, getting the DM's creative juices flowing can be quite a lot of fun, especially for the DM. I know where my players have done that and taken things in an unexpected direction, I have enjoyed it greatly. Then I get almost the same sort of wonder I get when I'm a player and someone else is shaping the world. I once ended up greating a whole alchemist's guild out of some unexpected actions of the players. It turned out to be a great addition to the world and even led to later adventure hooks.

There's nothing quite like the adventures where the players are the ones leading the DM into it rather than vice-versa.

 

[Gnarlo]

I instituted a method for this in my most recent campaign. It involves "Swashbuckling Cards." (You can read about the campaign, and find a link to download the .doc file for the cards, by checking out my Story Hour in my sig.)

Thanks for the link! I'm giving these a try in our next session, since one card each shouldn't get abused or out of control.

I'm of the "just because it sounds cool doesn't mean auto success" camp. Come up with a cinematic idea and attempt it? Cool, bonus RP xp, but you still got to make the rolls

 

[MerakSpielman]

Thanks for the link! I'm giving these a try in our next session, since one card each shouldn't get abused or out of control.

No problem! Remember, they're more fun when the DM doesn't even know what card each person has. I printed them up on cardstock and slapped a stylized dragon design on the back. Let me know how it goes!

 

[Henry]

Teflon Billy's point should be heeded here, too: You have to know that style the DM is running in. If a change from that is desired, the group needs to talk together as an issue.

Our group does not have a lot of "creativity" on the part of the players, but when someone is on a role, they really change things.

One player shaped the local politics of an entire town by just walking up to the mayor and telling him he was "onto his little game." The player was kidnapped to shut him up and a doppelgnger sent back to replace him, the other players figured it out, staged a raid, and a whole plot was undone in 24 hours of gametime, instead of dragging out over a couple of weeks, as I had planned.

The last thing in the WORLD I expected was for the player to go to the mayor without backup and spill the beans; but he spurred the plot along in a dramatic way, the ensuing jailbreak and plot unravelling was very cinematic and cool (from my perspective, anyway), and it worked out. Had I been a hard-nose, I would have forced events some other way, but in plausibility, when someone comes up to a spy and places themselves completely vulnerable, threatening to spill the beans, the spy's plans will likely unravel, as it should.

 

[Hardhead]

I instituted a method for this in my most recent campaign. It involves "Swashbuckling Cards." (You can read about the campaign, and find a link to download the .doc file for the cards, by checking out my Story Hour in my sig.)

These card are shuffled, passed out at the beginning of each session, and returned at the end of the session if unplayed. Each (beginning with a cheesy movie quote) allows something unusual, unexpected, or flat-out against the rules to happen. They have criteria for when they can be played (in combat, out of combat, at any time, etc...). Some are useful, some are just funny, and some are designed entirely to make the DM (me) think fast on my feet to find a way to make it happen that seems reasonable. Some are campaign changing, such as "Love, Love, Love: Play when an enemy has died or become disabled. Instead of dying, the enemy repents and becomes an ally." The most recent one that was played was "Your Feelings Betray You. Play any time not in combat. A vital piece of information is unintentially revealed." Bloody near destoryed my plot, and an NPC who was previously unimportant now is central (otherwise he wouldn't have had the information). The other one that was played in the last session was "Soliloquy. Play any time. All combat comes to a halt as you make a dramatic speech. Take as long as you like."

All kinds of cheesy goodness, and it hasn't unbalanced the campaign yet!

I thought this was such a good idea, I started a thread on it here.