Punk

[Desdichado]

Your qualifications are far from unique, frankly, and I don't find the fact that you "associated" with folks who "really know" their stuff to be very compelling. That you read a book by a critic, less so. Your authoritative tone being just your way is something I hadn't considered, so thank you for clearing that up. It makes it chafe less.

It may not be very compelling, but hopefully you'll understand if I find it more compelling than "some guy on the Internet." The people I've talked to and read are the people who do this for a living; Engligh lit folks who wrote dissertations on the subject and the like, or authors who write science fiction for a living. And I'm not just talking secondary sources either; the heyday of cyberpunk was during my heyday in terms of time and inclination to read just about anything I could get put in front of me. I've read quite a fair amount of cyberpunk, including the works that are considered seminal for the genre, with an eye for what makes it unique as a genre.

In any case, I'm not any more interested in a flame-out than you are. I posted my take on the actual subject of this thread already, so at this point I'll just have to sign off and hope we can leave it well enough alone, or take it to email. Either way, you've gotten me to make a longer post than I think I ever have before, outside the PbP stuff

Yes, you did post your take, but I didn't see how it contradicted anything I said. In fact, obviously I agree 100% with what I said, but I can say I agree 100% with what you said too, and I don't find them incompatible. That's why I wonder why and how you disagree with me. But, if you'd rather do so via e-mail, that's fine too.

 

[Desdichado]

But I've always associated the word "punk" tacked onto some type of literary genre/subgenre descriptor as meaning "rebellious," as in the characters are rebels against societal norms (real or imagined) and the writing is edgy and rebelling against the usually constraints of the genre.

Your mileage, however, may vary.

I'd say today that that's pretty much true. It's become the vogue du jour to tack -punk on the end of a genre, most likely to attempt to cross-pollinate with a new readership. But when cyberpunk, at least, was coined as a subgenre, it actually meant something more than that.

 

[Ranes]

With regard to cyberpunk, it was Gibson's work that defined the genre, to be sure. Nevertheless, John Brunner deserves a mention for The Shockwave Rider. Written in 1975, predating Gibson's Neuromancer by nine years, it is considered by many SF afficionados, myself included, to be the first cyberpunk novel.

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, there's a lot of "prototype" cyberpunk out there, to be sure - stuff that predates Neuromancer but is clearly in the same vein. It's ironic, in some ways, that Gibson won the Philip K. Dick award for Neuromancer. Philip K. Dick wrote with the same sensibilities of cyberpunk, if not without the exact same technological assumptions. Maybe you could call some of his stuff androidpunk?

 

[Tsyr]

Tsyr siad :



(uproarious laughter)

If you don't mind being a megacorp wageslave, chummer !

That's the whole point, though.

Sure. It may not be your idea of an ideal life, but like I said... Edible, nourishing food, a decent place to live, probably some basic health care (Depending on your corp, probably up to and including basic cyber replacements, and depending on your job description, some might even be included... datajacks, for example) and even the poorest saleryman has access to some luxuries, even if it's nothing more than basic trid access.

Shadowrunners, however, aren't content to live "in the system", and go around causing trouble, attacking these corporations, and their holdings, in what is basicly a selfish desire to improve their own state of being without doing it through the usual channels. Most people get along just fine with the system the way it is, though. Most shadowrunners, at best pay lip service to the notion of changing the world for the better. But really, lets be honest, most would laugh in your face if you suggested such a thing.

Sure. Some Shadowrunners were forced into their lifestyle... Heck, maybe even most, depending on your particular view of the Shadowrun world... But that doesn't mean they are anything other than criminals, fighting a working (If not, in your mind, ideal) system. And it's not a system that is all bad, either... It's not like they are slaves, rising up to overthrow their cruel masters, or something noble and heroic like that.

 

[Tsyr]

I'd say today that that's pretty much true. It's become the vogue du jour to tack -punk on the end of a genre, most likely to attempt to cross-pollinate with a new readership.

Or to attempt to describe something that is trying to hard to be different and edgy, by fans of the genre... ala "Dungeon-Punk"

 

[Desdichado]

Or to attempt to describe something that is trying to hard to be different and edgy, by fans of the genre... ala "Dungeon-Punk"

Good point!

 

[Dirigible]

In truth, I fully agree with ya, Tsyr. I'm a conformer at heart.

Yup, runners (at least in every game of SR i've GMed) are mercenaries, thieves and terrorists. Sometimes with the barest veneer of honour, or a code of some kind.

By the same token, when you break it down, every D&D character is :

A tomb robber, highwayperson, burglar, extortionist, mercenary, assassin, and to top it off, genocidal maniac.

Aren;t we all proud now ?

 

[Ranes]

...It's ironic, in some ways, that Gibson won the Philip K. Dick award for Neuromancer. Philip K. Dick wrote with the same sensibilities of cyberpunk, if not without the exact same technological assumptions....

True. 'Android punk' though)), now what if Asimov had gone in that direction?

Incidentally, and please forgive the increasingly divergent content of this post, I don't know how popular Jeff Noon's work is in the States but I find it refreshing. To me, his work is like a cross between Gibson et al and Lewis Carroll, especially Vurt and Nymphomation. Having been raised in Manchester, where his novels are usually set, I have to say that, Noon's visions - of genetically engineered jalfrezi that ensnare any who venture too close to the Curry Mile, for example - are sometimes closer to current affairs than science fiction.

Edited for just a tad more comprehensibility, not to mention grammar.

 

[WayneLigon]

From the alt.cyberpunk FAQ


Cyberpunk literature, in general, deals with marginalized people in technologically-enhanced cultural "systems". In Cyberpunk stories' settings, there is usually a "system" which dominates the lives of most "ordinary" people, be it an oppressive government, a group of large, paternalistic corporations or a fundamentalist religion. .... However, in any cultural system, there are always those who live on its margins, on "the Edge": criminals, outcasts, visionaries or those who simply want freedom for its own sake. Cyberpunk literature focuses on these people, and often on how they turn the system's technological tools to their own ends. This is the "punk" aspect of Cyberpunk.

...There is often a sense of moral ambiguity; simply fighting "the system" (to topple it, or just to stay alive) does not make the main characters "heroes" or "good" in the traditional sense.


Far from being a banal appeal to 'kewlness' (though certainly many recent aspects of the WoD systems can be characterized in this manner) the 'punk' aspect of these systems is as it says above.

The irony of this having been reduced to a buzzword - by which I mean a word used to promote a product where said product contains little or no actual relation to said word - is rich Or, perhaps not. Many times the word is being used to describe the style rather than the substance, which does indeed fit right in

The punk aspect of the WoD titles, for instance, comes from the overarching theme of each game: the young and powerless must shake off the bonds of the old ways of thinking and take the reins of power from the Old Order - be that the Primogen, the Sept Alpha, whatever - if they are to survive at all. If they don't, then Hell (Gehenna, the Apocalypse, etc) awaits them.

I see the same things in ShadowRun (any disavowal on their part to the title 'cyberpunk' must come from, IMO, a desire to distance themselves from a term that has been overused and thus cast in a bad light). Certainly you can have a 9-5 job and 'do well' for yourself, but you're really just putting more money into the palms of UCAS (or whoever runs things now) instead of ditching the hopelessly corrupt system and making your own way.

D&D could certainly be cast in a light of 'dungeonpunk' from the part of the definition that focuses on outsiders. What 'class' is more outside the mainstream than these nuts that willingly go into monster-haunted wildernesses? Also see the statements about moral ambiguity.