D&D 5E Purple Dragon Knight - 3rd Level

[abirdcall]

I like both the flavour and the mechanics of spreading around Fighter abilities to your allies that the Purple Dragon Knight provides.

Rallying Cry seems a bit weak to me for their defining 3rd level ability compared to the other Fighter archetypes.

At the same time, I think adding extra HP (like adding their hit die) would be too strong.

Agree/Disagree?

Any ideas on a small thematic bonus to go along with the ability? Maybe something else that triggers off of Charisma so that Royal Envoy is not the only thing?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

It seems okay to me, considering that 3 allies within 60 feet is often the same as saying "the entire party", and considering that it is not only the only fighter class feature at that point that allows the class to restore hit points, but is also a bonus action unlike most sorts of hp restoration outside of classes that treat hp restoration as one of their primary features, and is potentially a very frequently used ability.

Plus, the fighter only gets 1d10 + fighter level from it's use, so the other characters benefiting can't really have more than the fighter's level as their benefit without either a) giving them all the full benefit of second wind when the fighter uses it, or b) risking that the fighter recovers less hp from the use of the feature than the secondary targets do, either by higher roll on smaller dice, or by a flat value that the fighter's d10 might not roll higher than.

 

[abirdcall]

It seems okay to me, considering that 3 allies within 60 feet is often the same as saying "the entire party", and considering that it is not only the only fighter class feature at that point that allows the class to restore hit points, but is also a bonus action unlike most sorts of hp restoration outside of classes that treat hp restoration as one of their primary features, and is potentially a very frequently used ability.

Plus, the fighter only gets 1d10 + fighter level from it's use, so the other characters benefiting can't really have more than the fighter's level as their benefit without either a) giving them all the full benefit of second wind when the fighter uses it, or b) risking that the fighter recovers less hp from the use of the feature than the secondary targets do, either by higher roll on smaller dice, or by a flat value that the fighter's d10 might not roll higher than.

I agree that the ability itself shouldn't add more HP. I think they got it right.

Keep in mind that the allies need to see or hear the character so it can't revive characters that are at 0 HP. Healing Word is still better for that.

It is good, but the Battle Master gets 3 maneuvers and the Eldritch Knight gets spells. Those are major benefits. Maybe it is as strong as the Champion's Improved Critical?

Maybe I am looking at it from more of an identity viewpoint. The Battle Master and Eldritch Knight are well defined by their 3rd level abilities. Maybe in play Rallying Cry is that defining too.

Thanks for you input. I will continue to try to think of a good Social Pillar ability for them.

Edit -

What about simply giving them proficiency in Performance for free?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

It is also important to remember to consider sub-classes not on a feature by feature basis expecting equal amounts of "cool" from each at every level features are gained at, but on a sub-class by sub-class basis expecting roughly equal amounts of "cool" from the combined set of features gained over the entire level range.

So you can't compare rallying cry to combat superiority and expect them to be equal, but you can compare the battlemaster to the purple dragon knight and should find them within the same ballpark - even though one gains a huge feature at 3rd level and the other doesn't, because the former doesn't get much else at later levels (all the other features are small bumps at best) while the later gets another couple of pretty noteworthy features at those later levels (inspiring surge and bulwark).

Edit to add: and as far as "social pillar" features go, the fighter sub-classes other than champion already have that covered in the way of student of war/know your enemy, royal envoy, and the option to get non-combat spells at certain levels.

 

[abirdcall]

It is also important to remember to consider sub-classes not on a feature by feature basis expecting equal amounts of "cool" from each at every level features are gained at, but on a sub-class by sub-class basis expecting roughly equal amounts of "cool" from the combined set of features gained over the entire level range.

So you can't compare rallying cry to combat superiority and expect them to be equal, but you can compare the battlemaster to the purple dragon knight and should find them within the same ballpark - even though one gains a huge feature at 3rd level and the other doesn't, because the former doesn't get much else at later levels (all the other features are small bumps at best) while the later gets another couple of pretty noteworthy features at those later levels (inspiring surge and bulwark).

Edit to add: and as far as "social pillar" features go, the fighter sub-classes other than champion already have that covered in the way of student of war/know your enemy, royal envoy, and the option to get non-combat spells at certain levels.

Maybe that is the crux of my problem. I don't like high level play. I don't expect to see Bulwark in play much if at all. I look to the low level abilities to define the class/subclass as those are the abilities that will be used for most of the game.

Maybe they are just top heavy.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I wish there was a way to lower my die roll to 1d6+ fighter level, but also heal the allies that much

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Maybe that is the crux of my problem. I don't like high level play. I don't expect to see Bulwark in play much if at all. I look to the low level abilities to define the class/subclass as those are the abilities that will be used for most of the game.

Maybe they are just top heavy.

Are you saying "I haven't like high level play in prior iterations of D&D" or "I have tried high level play in 5th edition and do not like it despite how significantly different it is from high level play in prior iterations of D&D"?

If it is just that you expect not to like high level play now because you never have before, I encourage you to give it a shot - especially if you are looking for some kind of balance between all the different character options, since this iteration is built with the entire range of game play in mind (which is a goal that can be accomplished relatively easily) rather than trying to make every option balanced at every possible point of interaction (which is nearly impossible without also making every option nearly identical).

 

[Leatherhead]

I wish my local store wasn't sold out of the book

 

[Unwise]

It does seem weak to me in comparison to other sub-classes features. Most of my games go from levels 3-8 at most, so the level three feature is really the defining one. Taking overall balance etc is not particularly useful if you are going to play the majority of your adventures in a level range where the level 3 feature of most classes will be their defining one.

Not only that, but generally I have a feeling that in game design abilities that help other people can afford to be more powerful than those that only help the individual. For the moment, I'm letting them determine the HP given to friends as Cha+Level. At higher levels as that stops being particularly effective, I'll look into an alternate option for them to use an action instead of bonus action to do something more. Either healing more, or maybe giving advantage for inspired friends. Most of my games don't go high enough to warrant this though.

If any class was going to have a mechanic tied to Inspiration I think this class could have done with it. It is a good thing they avoided that though I guess as many groups don't use Inspiration at all.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Keep in mind that the allies need to see or hear the character so it can't revive characters that are at 0 HP.

DM's free to rule how he likes, of course. Both because the optimal use in 5e is often to bring PCs up from 0, and because unconsciousness doesn't include actual deafness, I'd tend to rule that it'd work fine.

It is good, but the Battle Master gets 3 maneuvers and the Eldritch Knight gets spells. Those are major benefits.

It's hard to stack up anything favorably next to spells. As you pointed out, a single spell, Healing Word, under one interpretation, is better.

Maybe I am looking at it from more of an identity viewpoint. The Battle Master and Eldritch Knight are well defined by their 3rd level abilities. Maybe in play Rallying Cry is that defining too.

Maybe not, but isn't it as defining as anything the Champion gets?

Are you saying "I haven't like high level play in prior iterations of D&D" or "I have tried high level play in 5th edition and do not like it despite how significantly different it is from high level play in prior iterations of D&D"?

It's always chicken-and-egg with high level, isn't it? Do people not like high level because it sucks? Does it suck because designers don't put effort into it because no one likes it anyway? Is it just that you generally try to get through low-level first, and groups break up before they get to high level? Where's the 'sweat spot' where it doesn't suck? (In 5e, there's a broad hint in experience progression: first few levels are lightning fast, then much slower for the rest of single digits, then speeds up again - keeping you in that mid-level 'sweet spot' longer).

Thanks to Bounded Accuracy, high-level play isn't /that/ different from what it was on the treadmill, in a basic sense, avoiding the 'why bother rolling' pitfalls of skill ranks, BAB/THAC0/Attack-Matrixes. High level spell /slots/ are limited, too, but powerful spells, plenty of known spells, & total slots still leave casters with bewildering versatility, so the 'weird wizard show' could still happen. As always, it's up to the DM to keep things on an even keel, but this time the 5e DM is Empowered to actually do so.