Push, Pull, Slide and cliffs....

[Daneal]

p285-286 PHB

There is a section here that talks about the effects of forced movement on yourself and others. In particular I am curious about this:

Catching Yourself: If you’re forced over a precipice
or a pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall.
See “Falling,” page 284.

Catching Yourself: If a power or a bull rush (page
287) forces you over a precipice or into a pit, you can
immediately make a saving throw to avoid going over
the edge. This saving throw works just like a normal
saving throw, except you make it as soon as you
reach the edge, not at the end of your turn.

The way I read it, it doesn't matter how many squares you are moved over the precipice (be it 1 more square or 10 over into oblivion), you get a chance to stop your movement and grab the edge. I assume when you fall prone at the edge you are not hanging by your fingers....you are just next to the edge.

Does that sound right to you?

 

[Kordeth]

Correct. Although as long as you don't require an Athletics check to climb up or anything more than a move action (the equivalent of "stand up"), I see no reason not to describe it as dangling over the edge if that works for you.

 

[gizmo33]

Yes, your interpretation of the RAW sounds right to me.

But otherwise, no, I'm not such a big fan of these mechanics. Stepping on a concealed pit is a reflex attack - but being pushed onto one is a saving throw? Saving throws are generic coin flips - good for durations but I don't see the point otherwise.

I probably will house rules this so that the pit/cliff makes an attack against your reflex, with +4 to hit for every 5 ft beyond the edge that you are pushed. That way more powerful pushes are harder to resist, and the targets reflex defense actually matters.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yes, your interpretation of the RAW sounds right to me.

But otherwise, no, I'm not such a big fan of these mechanics. Stepping on a concealed pit is a reflex attack - but being pushed onto one is a saving throw? Saving throws are generic coin flips - good for durations but I don't see the point otherwise.

I probably will house rules this so that the pit/cliff makes an attack against your reflex, with +4 to hit for every 5 ft beyond the edge that you are pushed. That way more powerful pushes are harder to resist, and the targets reflex defense actually matters.

Reflex doesn't make that much sense either - you're saying that int and dex affect how well you're resisting a powerful push (or alternately how well you cling onto the edge, which should be athletics, which keys off strength...).

 

[Syrsuro]

Yes, your interpretation of the RAW sounds right to me.

But otherwise, no, I'm not such a big fan of these mechanics. Stepping on a concealed pit is a reflex attack - but being pushed onto one is a saving throw? Saving throws are generic coin flips - good for durations but I don't see the point otherwise.

I probably will house rules this so that the pit/cliff makes an attack against your reflex, with +4 to hit for every 5 ft beyond the edge that you are pushed. That way more powerful pushes are harder to resist, and the targets reflex defense actually matters.

I'd probably say that being pulled/pushed onto a concealed pit has no defense. It certainly would not be prevented by the saving throw mechanic.

The 'throw yourself prone', imho, assumes that you are aware that the hazard is there and are choosing to go prone rather than being pushed into it. If you don't know the pit is there, you don't have the option to avoid it. So the forced movement ought to push you right over it.

Others have argued for why a save not a reflex based defense and it essentially comes down to avoiding the situation where certain builds are easy to push into hazards while others at the same level are essentially immune. Your level or dexterity based defense comes from the initial defense to the attack that is moving you - it doesnt, imho, need to be duplicated in the save to avoid going over the edge.

Carl

 

[HazardCatcher]

Curtained Window of Death

I'd probably say that being pulled/pushed onto a concealed pit has no defense. It certainly would not be prevented by the saving throw mechanic.

The 'throw yourself prone', imho, assumes that you are aware that the hazard is there and are choosing to go prone rather than being pushed into it. If you don't know the pit is there, you don't have the option to avoid it. So the forced movement ought to push you right over it.

It struck me as funny that there is no save for falling in a pit trap when it occured during a game. But I don't think it has so much to do with whether or not the creature knows the pit is there, but whether he is already in that square.

Pit traps are assumed to activate after a creature has wandered into that square(or been pushed even) the "pit" doesn't exist until it is too late for the save. This is especially obvious in a trap that say, turns all 8 squares around the creature as well as the one it is standing on into a pit.

It doesn't seem to be in the spirit or rules of the game that a creature pushed through a curtain or illusion into an open pit would not get a save.
Is there a rule or example in the book that suggest creatures do not get a save to fall off cliffs they aren't aware of?

The reason I think it works this way is that creatures are (usually, exceptions for gelatinous cubes) left hanging after the save, the game just represents that hanging condition as prone in the square next to the square you are hanging in, which is probably a lot simpler on everyone then creating a "hanging" condition which lets you not fall in squares with no floor if you are adjacent to a square with a floor. The game just lets you crawl up the ledge for free.

If creatures are in fact not hanging off a ledge then what is to keep creatures from making a saving throw when being forced into any square they don't want to go into by going prone? Not that such a rule couldn't exist but, it doesn't right?

I'm a little unclear on whether there is a save for being pushed into a fire or blade trap or other hazard, but if it works that way why can't a creature stop itself from being pushed next to the fighter or pulled into Orcus' aura?

 

[komi]

How about this:

I can push someone three squares. I pick a guy next to an edge and push him over. He gets a save and succeeds. Can I push him again with him getting another save? And again?

Basically when he saves is my forced movement on him done, or do we resolve it one square at a time?

 

[Danceofmasks]

The forced movement ends. As per the rule that says he gets a save in the first place.

 

[Minigiant]

If you teleport someone off an edge or on a trap, they don't get a save since it's not a push pull or slide, right?

 

[Jhaelen]

If you teleport someone off an edge or on a trap, they don't get a save since it's not a push pull or slide, right?

I'd rule differently.