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<blockquote data-quote="Syrsuro" data-source="post: 4405639" data-attributes="member: 58162">I'd probably say that being pulled/pushed onto a concealed pit has no defense.&nbsp; It certainly would not be prevented by the saving throw mechanic.&nbsp;The 'throw yourself prone', imho, assumes that you are aware that the hazard is there and are choosing to go prone rather than being pushed into it.&nbsp; If you don't know the pit is there, you don't have the option to avoid it.&nbsp; So the forced movement ought to push you right over it.&nbsp;Others have argued for why a save not a reflex based defense and it essentially comes down to avoiding the situation where certain builds are easy to push into hazards while others at the same level are essentially immune.&nbsp; Your level or dexterity based defense comes from the initial defense to the attack that is moving you - it doesnt, imho, need to be duplicated in the save to avoid going over the edge.&nbsp; &nbsp;Carl</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Syrsuro, post: 4405639, member: 58162"] I'd probably say that being pulled/pushed onto a [B]concealed[/B] pit has no defense. It certainly would not be prevented by the saving throw mechanic. The 'throw yourself prone', imho, assumes that you are aware that the hazard is there and are choosing to go prone rather than being pushed into it. If you don't know the pit is there, you don't have the option to avoid it. So the forced movement ought to push you right over it. Others have argued for why a save not a reflex based defense and it essentially comes down to avoiding the situation where certain builds are easy to push into hazards while others at the same level are essentially immune. Your level or dexterity based defense comes from the initial defense to the attack that is moving you - it doesnt, imho, need to be duplicated in the save to avoid going over the edge. Carl [/QUOTE]

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