Push+Wall=save

[Goumindong]

If damaging spell effects were terrain, then they would be hindering terrain.

They are hindering terrain. Your logic is like saying "power cannot deal damage because powers are not listed specifically in the ability to deal damage section of the rules".

A better example would be the forced movement rules themselves. The forced movement rules are not in the power section. Therefore, by your argument the forced movement rules do not apply to powers. If they wanted the forced movement rules to apply to powers they would have put the forced movement rules on each and every power or in the power section.

Oh wait, that is foolish. The question is "does this meet the requirement to be hindering terrain" and only "does this meet the requirement to be hindering terrain". The question is not "what idea can i bring up to somehow not apply the hindering terrain rules, which apply to any squares which have effects[I.E. exactly what zones and damaging conjurations do]"

The long and short of it is "specific > General"

The general rule is clear. We have a definition of hindering terrain. In order for the general rule to not apply there needs to be a rule, somewhere, anywhere that says it does not. Powers are not exempt "just because" there must be a rule that exempts them.

This is especially important because of just what a power is. A power is just an effect that a player can create. It is not special in any way except that it may be something that no one else can do. E.G. a basic melee attack is a power that all NPC's, PCs, and monsters have. Everyone can make a melee basic attack. Its a power. It is no different than a "making a fire" power that all NPC's PC's and intelligent monsters with opposable thumbs can do.

What is the difference between PC's making a fire fast, PC's making a fire slow, and NPC's making a fire slow? Nothing but the time it takes to make the fire.

Effects are not ruled as special in any instance because they come from a power, not once, not ever in the PHB. Hindering terrain is just terrain that has an effect triggered on the square. It doesn't matter if the "terrain" creates the effect, or a player created the effect in the square.

Such, the rule is clear. The general rule applies, there is no specific rule to override the general rule. Powers are hindering terrain if they create effects that meet the requirements.

Fake edit: I mean, lets go over some of the ridiculous stuff you can do with this. If a player puts spikes down on a square in an attempt to modify the battle, its not hindering terrain, but if the terrain has spikes naturally it is hindering terrain. If an NPC digs a ditch and lights it on fire, its not hindering terrain, but if the terrain is just on fire naturally or if the NPC digs a ditch and pours in napalm then its light on fire by a lightning strike it is hindering terrain? Ridiculous, there is no difference in the labeling of terrain based on whether or not a PC, NPC, or "natural event" created the terrain.

 

[Caliban]

They are hindering terrain.

Still just repeating yourself again.

Edit: sorry, that was a bit rude. Look, it should be pretty clear by now that I'm not going to accept your opinion over the CustServ response I got. In part, because the their response matches the way I think it should work.

It obviously doesn't match the way you think it should work. Posting a wall of text restating how wrong you think I am in various ways is really a waste of your time, because I'm not going to pay any attention to it.

I've got the answer I'm going to use until I see something more official that contradicts it. Plus, I'm bored with this debate.

If you really want to convince me that CustServ was wrong, send them (or The Sage) the same question a couple of times and see if you get conflicting answers.

 

[Goumindong]

I did not state how i think i am right. I stated explicitly how and where the rules state that I am right. If its obvious you do not care what the rules actually say or what produced a balanced result then just say it, do not claim that the rules say something that they do not. Falling back on an argument to authority does not change the facts of the matter, and the facts of the matter is that its hindering terrain.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I did not state how i think i am right. I stated explicitly how and where the rules state that I am right.

So is your rules argument that Wall of Fire (for example) is hindering terrain solely the DMG p61 line: "Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it"? Wall of Fire causes a square to damage creatures that enter it, therefore it fits this description?

-Hyp.

 

[Goumindong]

So is your rules argument that Wall of Fire (for example) is hindering terrain solely the DMG p61 line: "Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it"? Wall of Fire causes a square to damage creatures that enter it, therefore it fits this description?

-Hyp.

Short answer, yes. Long answer is contained within the thread. I am sure you will bring up the "blocking line of sight" issue, which does not restrict it from being hindering terrain. It means that the terrain simply has two effects, one that deals damage and one that obscures line of sight. It is hindering and obscuring terrain.

Another question you might want to ask yourself is why creatures are given a a choice for a save when being pushed into hindering terrain, and how is it justified within the in game context.

Is it because of balance? I say yes. Hindering terrain, without a save, makes push, pull, and slide powers stupidly powerful to the point where putting hindering terrain that is actually dangerous simply overpowers anyone with a number of push, pull, and slide abilities. Or with the ability to create said zones. It will get to the point where, if you allow said powers, you will have to artificially constrain their use in the same way that you had to artificially constrain the use of many spells and abilities in 3.5

Then there is the justification problem. Are we justifying this by saying creatures are attempting to save themselves from these effects? If we are, how do we justify these creatures suddenly not attempting to save themselves from the poison cloud created by a hostile wizard that is so thick you cant see through it?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Short answer, yes. Long answer is contained within the thread. I am sure you will bring up the "blocking line of sight" issue, which does not restrict it from being hindering terrain. It means that the terrain simply has two effects, one that deals damage and one that obscures line of sight. It is hindering and obscuring terrain.

No, I'm not planning on bringing up the line of sight issue.

But I look at PHB p16: "Melee basic attacks are based on Strength."

Tide of Iron is based on Strength; does p16 mean it is a melee basic attack?

PHB p248: "Hands Slot Items: Gloves and gauntlets contain powers that assist with skill checks, increase attack and damage rolls, and even allow you to reroll in some situations."

Boots of Balance assist with skill checks, and allow you to reroll in some situations. Does p248 mean they are Hand Slot Items?

DMG p61: "Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it."

Wall of Fire creates a square that damages creatures that enter it. Does p61 mean this is Hindering Terrain?

(The rules issue is entirely separate from the balance or common sense issues.)

-Hyp.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm considering a house rule that you can respond to any forced movement by making a saving throw; if you make the save, you drop prone. That lets us dispense with nitpicky questions like what does and does not constitute hindering terrain.

 

[Dausuul]

So are you saying that if a saving throw isn't allowed, people will suddenly rush to play wizards who otherwise wouldn't?

In my experience, Wizards have been the "cleric" of 4th edition: A class that a group probably should have one of, but it seems NO ONE wants to play one. I suspect it's because some DMs aren't using minions often enough, but it's true. I had to give the Wizard player in our game a few perks (like allowing him to cast his dailies and utilities like a 3e sorcerer, basically) so that he didn't quit in frustration.

Really? Weird. I'm playing a wizard and having a blast... literally. He devastates minions, of course, but even against non-minion monsters he can lay the smack down hard. (The tiefling feat that boosts your attack and damage rolls when using fire is awesome.)

 

[Mahali]

DMG p61: "Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it."

Wall of Fire creates a square that damages creatures that enter it. Does p61 mean this is Hindering Terrain?
-Hyp.

Yes. Always looked cut-and-dried to me and it still does. Nothing I've read in this thread causes me to rethink the rules either. I say "the rules" instead of "my position" because I think DMG p61 makes it perfectly clear that an area under a damaging effect, be it natural or (player) created is Hindering Terrain.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes. Always looked cut-and-dried to me and it still does. Nothing I've read in this thread causes me to rethink the rules either. I say "the rules" instead of "my position" because I think DMG p61 makes it perfectly clear that an area under a damaging effect, be it natural or (player) created is Hindering Terrain.

I think p61 makes it perfectly clear that an area which is Hindering Terrain blocks movement or damages those who enter it.

I don't think it makes it clear that any area that blocks movement or damages those who enter it is Hindering Terrain.

All dogs have four legs. This cat has four legs. Therefore this cat is a dog?

-Hyp.