"Quality Standards" in the d20 System Guide

[Felon]

Well it's fine to believe that what one company does doesn't in any way effect the community, that's not how it works.

That's how it works quite often. Products come and go without making a ripple. WotC sure are providing TBoEF with a lot of free publicity. If they see it as a threat, it's a threat that they've nurtured.

Perhaps you'll enjoy 190 pages of Everything Sexual, but that 190 pages WILL prevent any other products dealing with that sort of material from being published. Will somebody be able to make a conan-style or Heavy Metal style game setting and release it under D20? Nope. Will somebody be able to release the D20 Cthulhu product now? Nope. Is that MY fault for believing that the BoEF was a BAD idea? Not in the least.

Was the policy change AV's idea? Not in the least. That was WotC's choice. There was no gun to their head.

Yes, the BoEF would have possibly failed. On the other hand, the BoEF could have prospered. A thousand thousand gamers could have picked it up and ten thousand parents could have seen "DUNGEONS AND DRAGON ... Book of Erotic Fantasy" and been upset.

So what? You know those parents offended by TBoEF would probably be offended by d20 Heavy Metal and d20 Call of Cthulhu if they displayed excessive gore and/or sexuality, don't you? Console yourself with knowing that just because some mothers out there with too much time on their hands get offended does not spell doom for the corporation. The success of the Grand Theft Auto games makes that pretty clear. I don't see Rockstar Games filing for bankruptcy.

For that matter, TSR's sales peaked during the (supposedly) negative publicity of the satanism scare of the eighties. TBoVD didn't make the headlines or send WotC's shareholders running to the water closet.

WotC has to decide what kind of game they want D&D to be. By its very nature, it is not going to work as fare for young kiddies. You do not sit down with orcs and teach them how to share. You pull out your sword and take their lives violently. It's unpleasant business.

Hasbro and it's underling Wizards Of The Coast doesn't want a thousand parents seeing the first thing on a book about RPing porno the words "Dungeons And Dragons". It's important to them.

Then come up with some ground rules for mature content products. Look, here's a "FOR MATURE READERS" logo you need to put on your products alongside the postage stamp logo. That still leaves the D20 system open for adult-oriented products, and it keeps WotC out of the business of scrutinizing every D20 product that comes down the pipeline.

I know -I-, personally, would have bought an adult setting book of violence and nudity. Would something more tame have been passed by WotC? Would something not flaunting the D&D name have been passed by WotC? Maybe not. But it probably would have been easier for the upper-ups at Hasbro to not notice something less flagrant. And if they hadn't had something like this shoved under their nose, maybe that hypothetical CoC product might have been made. Maybe some expansions for my hypothetical setting would have been made. Maybe a "Harlots and Harridans" expansion would have been released for that setting, 100+ page book on VDs and sex-themed skills and feats and classes. Maybe I wouldn't have bought it, but at least we'd not be in the position we're in now.

In the end, WotC are culpable for their policy decisions. They are supposed to be professionals and they are supposed to act (and react) in a calm, rational, businesslike manner.

 

[Wycen]

I've certainly never heard of WotC demanding any books destroyed

Just this year they forced Fast Forward Entertainment to destroy several books for d20 license violations, (usually stemming from using the name Drawmij).

 

[Largomad]

Edit: Triple post *sighs*...

 

[Felon]

Deleted double post

 

[Kichwas]

What's the Century Worm from?

 

[kingpaul]

Just this year they forced Fast Forward Entertainment to destroy several books for d20 license violations, (usually stemming from using the name Drawmij).

It was my understanding that FFE did that on their own; WotC didn't tell them to do it.

 

[Ranger REG]

Herein lies precisely the problem. Valar, by virtue of trying to exploit every possible loophole in both the d20STL and Open Gaming License - from the very first press release the company made, mind you - to play by the letter of the law while intentionally and grossly violating the spirt of the law as much as possible, has created the problem. And now every other third-party publisher has to suffer for it. Assume there are 30 d20 releases this month. Because that one book has been used to poleaxe the licenses, all thirty books will suffer repercussions.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

As for violating the spirit of the law, I never considered D&D a "clean" game for children, especially when Wizards' key target demographic are college-age group, and earlier editions of AD&D have questionable artwork, like a topless mermaid. The idea for d20/OGL is for publishers to make whatever niche products that Wizards can't publish to fill in the gap in the d20 gaming community.

I may consider Disney as a label that is too clean to be on any PG-13 rated films or worse, but D&D or in this case, d20 logo?

As for the letter of the law and exploiting loopholes, up until version 5.0, there is nothing there with regards to the acceptable quality of the content, just the rules mechanics and game defined terms. Wizards should have just stick with that.

I'm not pro-censorship outside of the realm of me as a parent censoring what my underage children see, hear, and read (and of course, personal "censorship" in deciding what I see, hear, read, and write). But this has not been about censorship. This appears from the outside to be a peeing contest, started by Valar in general and AV in particular. Now, I hope those appearances are deceiving. But even if I agree on some of the points Valar has raised, I can't back them because of the offensive way in which they've raised them (not in terms of the BoEF, but in the way they've carefully and deliberately orchestrated an attack on the spirit of the licenses). The problem for me is not the BoEF itself - the problem for me personally is that Valar has urinated in the pool that all the other d20 publishers are swimming in and has caused a lot of collateral damage for them by doing so.

Would it have been different if it wasn't Valterrra and the BoEF? It could have been just another publisher using the d20 ruleset to make an adult-themed RPG with a d20 logo attached to it. Even I myself predicted that someday, someone is going to make such an RPG.

Not becoming like Microsoft, they're becoming like Sony who limits videogames that can be played on their Playstation, such as BMX-XXX.

This isn't about me trying to censor Valar. The BoEF itself will of course have no direct impact on my works - it has no direct impact on me, so I am completely uninterested. BUT Valar's actions in using the BoEF as a tool in their attack of the licenses *have* directly impacted me as a third party publisher, and believe me, I'm NOT happy about that.

If what you're saying that you do not agree with Wizards' action in alleged response to the Valterra/BoEF incident, then I concur.

 

[elforcelf]

To Wulf and Psion,first Wulf you are a good friend so do not get mad about this post,Psion,well,Wulf you are a good friend.What are you two smoking?TSR alway has been a rules nazi company.I was able to tell this back in 80 went I started playing.To Wulf,talk to you later friend.elforcelf.

 

[azildurn]

a t-shirt for the occasion...

Well personally I think it's self destructive for WotC to do what they're doing and it's silly that d20 is being treated this way. As I've stated in preveious posts WotC has basically shown that they can't operate in good faith with the gaming community. It is totally their right to do so but it is very bad form.

That said, I love satire, parody, subversion and smartass retorts so here is a link to my t-shirt for the occassion.

http://www.cafeshops.com/snarlingfrog.7491945

The picture that's censored was to be art from the new religion suplement for my d20 online stuff (www.dalhazrin.com) which indeed contains many of the things WotC is banning without being crude or over the top. Torment and gore are discusses as part of Hell, what can I say I wanted it to be a bad place. BTW, it was going to contain a maturity warning but that's moot now.

Note: Like all the useless crap I sell in the Snarling Frog Store this isn't a profit thing...cafepress.com gets all the money due to the fact that I don't mark anything up...well at least not t-shirts and junk with logos on it. Also the store wasn't set to launch for another 2 weeks so it's not complete but I couldn't pass up this chance to be obnoxious.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I don't like the WotC decision either. It was, however, a situation that might have been avoided.

Yea, a "For Mature Readers" tag might be nice. Maybe if Valar approached it differently, there could be.

Felon:
"In the end, WotC are culpable for their policy decisions. They are supposed to be professionals and they are supposed to act (and react) in a calm, rational, businesslike manner."

Doesn't the same apply to Valar? They're responsible for their policy decisions and are supposed to act in a businesslike manner. Alot of things are calling their willingness to do so into question.

In the end, yes, Valar and BoEF is getting big press, and WotC is a big part of that. And, y'know, in the end I think it's going to die away. There'll be more interest in this flagship product from Valar, we'll see how much money this mess gets them. I have a feeling that, in a year or two, WotC and D&D will still be at the forefront of RP gaming and Valar will be a forgotten start-up. That's usually how it goes, and sex-themed RP material is a nich market within a struggling nich market.

So yes, the saddest part of this is that, in the end, all we have is a flash-in-the-pan scandal centered around a doubly-nich product and all we, the public, get is further restrictions to the d20 community.

I'm just not comfortable with people putting this entirely in the lap of WotC.

--fje