Question about Area Dispel

[Malcer]

Quote from the 3.5 Player's Handbook:

"For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel check against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature's magic items are not affected."

In last nights game session, we were subject to an area dispel and I lost a permanent spell as the result. We always used to make dispel checks against the spells with the highest level in our campaign and worked our way down, which I think is mechanically wrong after having read the description of Dispel Magic more closely.

I had the following spells working on my character:

1. Mage Armor
2. Resist Energy (Fire)
3. See Invisibility
4. Permanent Arcane Eye
5. Overland Flight

The first dispel attempt failed and I kept the Overland Flight spell, but the second attempt dispelled my Permanent Arcane Eye.
All of my spells were cast at a caster level of eleven and I argued with my gaming group that all of my remaining spells had a similar chance to be dispelled, but I was rebuffed by everyone because we had always resolved area dispel attempts from the highest ongoing spell level down to the lowest.

But let us consider this case and the ability to cast spells and lower caster levels:

1. Mage Armor (cast at caster level 2)
2. Shield (cast at caster level 3)
3. Fly (cast at caster level 5)
5. Stoneskin (cast at caster level 7)
6. Overland Flight (cast at caster level 9)
7. Resist Energy (cast at caster level 11)
8. See Invisibility (cast at caster level 11)
9. Repulsion (cast at caster level 11)

As I understand the rules after closely reading the description of Dispel Magic, you would have to resolve an area dispel against the three spells cast at caster level 11 first, chosing if successful one of them randomly that would be dispelled.
If that attempt did not work, you would check whether the area dispel worked on Overland Flight. The dispel check would be 20 to be successful.
After that, it is Stoneskin, Dispel Check required 18 and so on until you succesful dispel one spell or failed at all attempts to dispel the remaining weaker spells.

If we go back to my first example of my 11th level wizard that had all his ongoing spells cast at caster level eleven. Does that mean that after one unsuccesful area dispel attempt (which could dispel either one of his ongoing spell effects), the area dispel would not affect any more of his spells at all?

I know that all bets are off, if someone comes around and puts a targetted dispel on my character, but it is easier to protect against targetted dispel attempts than protecting youself against being subject to an area dispel.

Please help me out and tell me whether I am correct in my interpretation of the rules.

 

[shilsen]

As I understand the rules after closely reading the description of Dispel Magic, you would have to resolve an area dispel against the three spells cast at caster level 11 first, chosing if successful one of them randomly that would be dispelled.

Correct. But if the first attempt did not work, you would resolve it against the second spell and (if that did not work either) then the third.

If that attempt did not work, you would check whether the area dispel worked on Overland Flight. The dispel check would be 20 to be successful.
After that, it is Stoneskin, Dispel Check required 18 and so on until you succesful dispel one spell or failed at all attempts to dispel the remaining weaker spells.

Right.

If we go back to my first example of my 11th level wizard that had all his ongoing spells cast at caster level eleven. Does that mean that after one unsuccesful area dispel attempt (which could dispel either one of his ongoing spell effects), the area dispel would not affect any more of his spells at all?

No. You would make checks against all the spells until one was dispelled (or until there were no more to dispel).

I see the reasoning you are using, but I do not think that the area dispel magic would skip spells because there was more than one at the same caster level.

 

[Malcer]

I agree that it would work against the spirit of the Area effect of Dispel Magic if we'd follow my logic, but there is nothing contradicting my interpretation as well.

I think that the wording is ambiguous because under the description of area dispel it is said that you resolve the attempt against the spell with the highest caster level. In my honest opinion that does not expressively say that you'd check against other spells of that caster level, if the first attempt failed.

But I am firm in my belief that all spells cast at a certain caster level are equal in power and that the level of spell has nothing to do with it.
Hence, if you're subject to an area dispel you would:

1. Make a dispel check once and find out whether is succeeds or fails. If it succeeds, choose randomly one spell at the caster level that is dispelled. If it fails, go on to spells at lower caster levels (those could be spells cast on a lower caster level like in my example or spells from items) and check again, or if there are no spells and lower caster levels, stop dispelling at all.

I see nothing in the description of Dispel Magic that would contradict this interpretation, but as I said it might be better to have the area version of Dispel Magic work more effectively for game balance reason.

2. Make a dispel checks up to the number of the spells cast at the highest caster level. If one of the checks succeeds, choose a spell randomly and consider it dispelled.
If all of the dispel checks fail, consider moving down to spell effects cast at a lesser casting level and repeat the process until one attempt is successful or all attempts fail.

 

[Ferox4]

I concur with Shilsen. In the case where 2 or more spells are at cast at the same caster level we start with the highest level spell first. If they are the same spell level we randomly determine the order.

As a side note - I have seen many people treat dispelled permanent abilities as not functioning for 24 hours. While I don't subscribe to this method, it is at least an alternative to consider.

 

[Malcer]

I concur with Shilsen. In the case where 2 or more spells are at cast at the same caster level we start with the highest level spell first. If they are the same spell level we randomly determine the order.

Well, as I said in the first post we did likewise but I haven't found anything in the description of the area effect of dispel magic that actually says that. The reference to weaker spells refers in my opinion only to spells that were cast at a lower caster level. Caster Levels are described on page 171 in the 3.5 Player's Handbook and there is no mention of spell levels having any impact on the power of the spell whatsoever.
Apart from the fact that if you'd check for higher level spells first, that it is more likely that you'd loose a higher spell before you loose a lower spell, I myself never questioned our application of the rules. But if you consider the likelihood of having a permanent effect dispellled, the distinction becomes quite important.

Another question is whether a permanent effect counts as a 5th level spell effect or, for example, if you have a permanent See Invisibility active, as a 2nd level spell.

As a side note - I have seen many people treat dispelled permanent abilities as not functioning for 24 hours. While I don't subscribe to this method, it is at least an alternative to consider.

Well, all wizards should love this kind of house rule, but falling behind on exp is covered by the experience tables.
I did not gain a level last night (because I spent 1500 exp to make Arcane Sight permanent), but I am certain that I will be recompensated quite handsomely if I continue earning exp as a 11th level character in comparsion to my companions who are 12th level by now.

 

[Ferox4]

disregard - problem fixed. ty, malcer

 

[Spatula]

Also, the dispeller has to have a higher caster level than you did when you cast Permanancy, IIRC.

 

[Malcer]

Also, the dispeller has to have a higher caster level than you did when you cast Permanancy, IIRC.

I forgot to mention it, but unfortunately that was the case.

 

[Firzair]

Hi everybody,
actually I'm with Malcer on this one: an area dispel affacts only one spell per subject and tries the highest caster level spell first. If that check fails the dispel doesn't have the power (my interpretation) to affect this caster level and "you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell". So if all your spell were cast on level 11 and the initial check against level 11 fails, there's no weaker spell and the dispel has no effect on you.

[house rule]
IMC Dispel magic only ever dispels a maximum of one spell per casting, only greater dispel magic is capable of dispelling more spells per casting.
Otherwise dispel magic is simply too powerful
[/house rule]

Greetings
Firzair

 

[Black Knight Irios]

[house rule]
IMC Dispel magic only ever dispels a maximum of one spell per casting, only greater dispel magic is capable of dispelling more spells per casting.
Otherwise dispel magic is simply too powerful
[/house rule]

I think that rule is not needed anyway, because Dispel Magic has a Casterlevel Cap and when the possibility of Permanent Spells arises, Dispel Magic starts caping out. And the higher the party level the more spells are running on them, so why cap Dispel Magic at all, making it practically even more useless as it already is at higher levels.

SRD 3.5
Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.
For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

So you can read it that if all spells are cast at caster level 11 and the dispell attempt doesn't beat DC 22 then no spell will be affected at all, since there are no weaker spells, assuming there is no difference in spell level for this purpose. -Or that if there is only one caster level present, e.g. 11, then you have to consider spell level as well, but that is stated no where.
Save DCs are not caster level dependent at all, all that matters is spell level and other aspects but not caster level, so I think spell level has something to do with dispelling as well. -Waiting for other replies.
Some mentioned that lower level spells count as weaker, is it written somewhere, Detect Magic meassures the Aura's Strenght based on spell level not on casterlevel at all, for ongoing spells.
You have to consider caster level for sure for dispel magic but has spell level anything to do with it at all, I start wondering. -Hopefully someone has a good statement possibly governed with rules, that states what will happen at all.