Question about Area Dispel

[Ferox4]

So you can read it that if all spells are cast at caster level 11 and the dispell attempt doesn't beat DC 22 then no spell will be affected at all, since there are no weaker spells, assuming there is no difference in spell level for this purpose. -Or that if there is only one caster level present, e.g. 11, then you have to consider spell level as well, but that is stated no where.
Save DCs are not caster level dependent at all, all that matters is spell level and other aspects but not caster level, so I think spell level has something to do with dispelling as well. -Waiting for other replies.
Some mentioned that lower level spells count as weaker, is it written somewhere, Detect Magic meassures the Aura's Strenght based on spell level not on casterlevel at all, for ongoing spells.
You have to consider caster level for sure for dispel magic but has spell level anything to do with it at all, I start wondering. -Hopefully someone has a good statement possibly governed with rules, that states what will happen at all.

I can't think of anywhere this is explicitly stated, but I still think that spells with the same caster level should not be viewed en masse. This just smacks of power gaming to me.

Granted, I am not providing any concete evidence to support my stance, but such narrow reading of the Dispel Magic entry seems inappropriate.

HOWEVER, caster level is the measure of the strength of a spell. I think it's in the PHB in the glossary. I had mentioned earlier that perhaps spell level should be an indicator of variable strength of a spell with the same caster level, but the rules, as written, do not support this stance.

Furthermore, looking at targeted dispel:

Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If the designers meant for area dispel to work in this manner why didn't they just state it this way? The fact that they are written differently may lend creedence to those who are in Malcer's camp. To be honest, I'm not sure.

I have always viewed area dispels as the "weaker" of the three dispel options. While they have the ability to effect multiple creatures, they also are not as powerful vs. each individual in the area. This is balanced out by only being able to remove one spell from each individual and not affecting magic items. Perhaps the point we are debating here also falls under the category of limitation? I am speculating here.

I guess what I am getting at is that I recognize the stance of the argument and can find no hard proof to refute it (not to say that there isn't some). I will watch this thread with some interest and wonder if I haven't missed something obvious........lol

Cheers

 

[MichaelH]

FWIW, I list each effect by caster level. If there is more than one effect at a given caster level, I roll against the higher spell level first. I roll against each ongoing spell whether or not they are the same caster level until one effect is dispelled or no effect is dispelled. The reason I list according to spell level if/when the caster level is the same is because the Detect Magic spell clearly shows that higher level spells are more powerful magic than lower level spells. YMMV.

 

[Artoomis]

The problem with Malcer's interpretation is that you'd be safer from Dispel Magic by having all your spells cast at the same level rather than at multiple levels - a truly bizarre result.

Additionally, I am quite certain that's not how it reads - for your result, it would have to say something like "check once for all spells of the same caster level..." or words to that effect.

Your logic of checking all one caster level with one roll would only hold if that one roll was used for ALL the spells on you (not a bad idea, actually). That's not how it works, though - Dispel Magic maintains an element of risk and suspense as you roll for each spell - it's quite possible that you could have a caster level 8 spell survive while a caster 5 level spell is dispelled with a roll that would have dispelled the caster 8 spell - but that does not matter, since you checked that particular caster level 8 spell already.

FWIW, permanent spells count as 5th level, unless obtained through Wish or Miracle, in which case they are 9th level. Not that it matters - it's caster level that's important here.

A targeted Dispel Magic has some of the same randomness and suspense that the area Dispel Magic does in that each spell is checked - not one check for all spells, or even all spells of one caster level.

 

[strongbow]

In 3.0 you dispelled in order based on spell level. In 3.5 you dispel in order based on caster level. A subtle but very distinct change

 

[Kerrick]

We treat permanent spells like magic items - a dispel suppresses them for 1d4 rounds. A disjunction, OTOH, has the power to destroy a permanent spell (which is why it's 9th level). I suppose if you did a targetted dispel against the permanent spell, you could say it could work (pernding a successful check), but I definitely wouldn't have an area dispel work.

I think that rule is not needed anyway, because Dispel Magic has a Casterlevel Cap and when the possibility of Permanent Spells arises, Dispel Magic starts caping out. And the higher the party level the more spells are running on them, so why cap Dispel Magic at all, making it practically even more useless as it already is at higher levels.

That's why they have spells like greater dispelling and disjunction.

 

[Liquidsabre]

So if all your spell were cast on level 11 and the initial check against level 11 fails, there's no weaker spell and the dispel has no effect on you.

Except for the PHB text under Area Dispel: "For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispell the spell."

 

[Malcer]

Except for the PHB text under Area Dispel: "For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispell the spell."

Yes, your're quite right, but the description is not talking about "area or effect spells", which are quite a different thing if we we compare them to spells a creature or character is subject to.

By the way, I am not arguing because I want to defend my smug interpretation of the rules. I am just stunned that I can't find anything that refutes my reasoning, which I think goes against how Area Dispel Magic should work.

I don't think that you should check only once when you have several spells running on your person and you're subject to an area dispel (well, of course only if they are alll cast on the same caster level), but I think I made a fine argument that you could, according how the rules are written.

 

[Malcer]

The problem with Malcer's interpretation is that you'd be safer from Dispel Magic by having all your spells cast at the same level rather than at multiple levels - a truly bizarre result.

Additionally, I am quite certain that's not how it reads - for your result, it would have to say something like "check once for all spells of the same caster level..." or words to that effect.

Your logic of checking all one caster level with one roll would only hold if that one roll was used for ALL the spells on you (not a bad idea, actually). That's not how it works, though - Dispel Magic maintains an element of risk and suspense as you roll for each spell - it's quite possible that you could have a caster level 8 spell survive while a caster 5 level spell is dispelled with a roll that would have dispelled the caster 8 spell - but that does not matter, since you checked that particular caster level 8 spell already.

FWIW, permanent spells count as 5th level, unless obtained through Wish or Miracle, in which case they are 9th level. Not that it matters - it's caster level that's important here.

A targeted Dispel Magic has some of the same randomness and suspense that the area Dispel Magic does in that each spell is checked - not one check for all spells, or even all spells of one caster level.

Well, I think that is exactly what is happening. The result holds up for all the spells of the highest caster level, but only one goes if the first Area Dispel check is successful.
If not you'd check lower caster levels if there were any ongoing lower caster level spells the creature or character is subject to.

By the way, my origninal intention of looking into the Area dispel magic description was motivated by my loss of my permanent spell (look up my first post for the details). If Area Dispel worked the way I think it is presented in the rules, not as I think it should work, I'd be practically forced to always have some spells cast at a lower caster level (the level of my permanent spell) whenever I gained a level. That would be very bothersome in the long run.