question about character total value.

[Artoomis]

Actually, when creating a character above Level 1, you do not reduce the character's XP at all. there is a specific rule in the DMG that applies.

It says to count a charged item as half its full value and then roll for the number of charges left, and items the character can create are valued at 70% of their actual values. Charged items that the character can create count at 35% of their actual costs.

????

Where did you get this. I looked through the whole DMG section on creating PCs above 1st level, and what it actually says it to assign a number of exp pts and money, and let the character create items using up money and exp pts. With proportionally reduced costs for charged items with less then full charges.

Where is the "rule" you are refering to?

 

[AGGEMAM]

????

Where did you get this. I looked through the whole DMG section on creating PCs above 1st level, and what it actually says it to assign a number of exp pts and money, and let the character create items using up money and exp pts. With proportionally reduced costs for charged items with less then full charges.

Where is the "rule" you are refering to?

I would also like to know where in DMG it says that.

 

[Artoomis]

I got and crunched some numbers - the results are very interesting.

10th level = 45,000 e.p.
11th level = 55,000 e.p.
10th level wealth = 49,000 gp

Spending ALL of it on self-made items gives 98,000 gp value for 1,960 e.p., or about 1/5 of the e.p. needed to go from 10th to 11th level.

15th level = 105,000 e.p.
16th level = 120,000 e.p.
15th level wealth = 200,000 gp

Spending ALL of it on self-made items gives 400,000 gp for 8,000 e.p., or about 1/2 of the e.p. needed to go from 15th to 16th level.

What this means is that if you are willing to slow your advancement so that you are up to 1/2 a level behind your companions you can create items to have double the total value.

In thinking about this, it occurs to me that book value does not work - you should use 1/2 book value for self-made items. This more accurately represents the fact that you canincrease your personal wealth and item-derived power at the expense of your experience points.

 

[francom13]

Ah but if you take the feat from Magic of Faerun I think it is magical artistion or something like that it reduces the amount you have to pay by 1/4 and it also reduces the xp spent.

so if you took this feat for wondrous item creation then it reduces the differance in xp.

-Matt

 

[Nail]

I got and crunched some numbers - the results are very interesting.....[snip]

In thinking about this, it occurs to me that book value does not work - you should use 1/2 book value for self-made items. This more accurately represents the fact that you canincrease your personal wealth and item-derived power at the expense of your experience points.

Fasinating. Here I thought makin' yer own magic items was a loser's game, since you'd end up behind yer compaitriots. Yer sayin' that at 10th level, you're actually better off spending all yer money an' XP -- spending 1/5 of yer XP doubles yer net worth.......the cost to gain ratio is low there. Other levels?

At 20th level the starting money is around 730,000 gp. Spent on makin' all yer own magic items, that's a book value of 1,460,000 gp an' 58,400 XP. Clearly not possible fer a 20th level mage ta do........

An' we all know that more magic items means better chances of survival.....

Perhaps you could explain what you mean when you say "[the] book value does not work..." I don't follow yer line o' thought.

-Nail

 

[Artoomis]

Nail:

The book value does not work.... was refering to using book value of items to calulate total of character power.

It does not work because of the item creation rules. What does work is:

Total money + total book value of all items NOT made by you + 1/2 book value of all magic items made by you.

In all cases reduce the value of charged items proportionally according the the number of charges remaining.

This works if you buy into the assumption that the power increase of self-made items is balanced by the experience cost (this seems to not be entirely true, but that deos seem to be the by-the-book assumption).

This gives you a way to measure character power against another character, which I think was the idea behind the orignal post.

As an aside, if you really want a good comparison, you have to do two additional things:

1. Adjust money by how far along you are towards the next level (as Anubis pointed out).
2. Adjust experience points by taking the total value of all self-made items and dviding bgy 25 and add that to the exp pts for comparison purposes.

An example is in order, I think.

Let's take 2 character and compare them to see if they have the same "power" per the wealth chart.

Character 1 is a 10th lvl Fighter (45,000 exp. pts.) with a total value of gold, mundane and magic items of 50,000 gp.

Character 2 is a 9th level Wizard (44,600 exp. pts.) with a total value of gold, mundane and magical items as follows:

5,000 cash
5,000 mundane items (I don't know - he owns a house, okay?)
30,000 found and purchases magic items
20,000 (book value) self-made magic items.

Total value for comparison = 5K + 5K + 3K + 1/2 (20K) = 50K

Adjusted exp. pts. for comparison = 44,600 + 20,000/25 = 45,000

So they coth come in at 45,000 exp. pts. and 50,000 gp - which they should, because that's what I started them with to create them.

So you see why you need to use 1/2 value of created items. The experience point calculation is not really needed in most cases - only if you are trying to find out where they would have been without creating any items.

 

[Anubis]

It's in the section for creating NPCs on page 47 of the DMG. I figured it applied perfectly because NPCs have no reason to be created differently than PCs other than the already-established differences in net worth.

 

[Christian]

Fasinating. Here I thought makin' yer own magic items was a loser's game, since you'd end up behind yer compaitriots. Yer sayin' that at 10th level, you're actually better off spending all yer money an' XP -- spending 1/5 of yer XP doubles yer net worth.......the cost to gain ratio is low there. Other levels?

Making your own items costs you in two ways, don't forget. Aside from the experience points, there's also the feats you have to use on item creation feats instead of feats you could use during an adventure. Still, especially for Wizards, it's a very effective system.

If you're making the items for yourself, that is. In an actual long-term campaign, working your way from first to twentieth, a Wizard who spends her downtime cranking out scrolls, potions, wands, and wondrous items to tuck into her own pack, will be constantly deluged with whines from her fellow party members. "Why won't you make some stuff for meeeee." And of course, she'll end up giving in, tossing off some Boots of Striding and Springing for the Monk, a +2 sword for the Fighter, a Cloak of Elvenkind for the Ranger, a Ring of Invisibility for the Rogue. And she'll be twelfth level while the rest of them are fourteenth, destroying the opposition with all the goodies the she spent her life essence to make for them, and what thanks does she get?

Umm ...

Never mind, I got kinda lost there.

 

[Nail]

Nail:

The book value does not work.... was refering to using book value of items to calulate total of character power.

It does not work because of the item creation rules. What does work is:

Total money + total book value of all items NOT made by you + 1/2 book value of all magic items made by you.

Good number crunching.

...still, I'm tempted ta believe that using book value to calculate Total Character Power(tm) is th' way ta go, irrespective of who made th' magic items.

I think our trains o' thought are diverging here, so let me tell ya where I'm headed:

Compare 2 mages: One makes magic items an' spends XP, the other doesn't. Which is the better choice has somethin' ta do with their "net value" (gold plus items) at any given XP value (current XP + those spent on magic items and such), .....but also has ta do with how fast they get to th' next level.

Levelin' is everythin', after all.

Havin' magic items helps ya survive longer, an' probably even gets ya there quicker, 'cause yer blastin' stuff wit' yer wands and what-not. But ye've spent XP, so yer comin' back from a deficit.

The XP-miser mage has no deficit, but has no self-made, half-cost, magic items.

Which is "better"?

At 10th level, it only takes 1/5 of yer available XP to double yer wealth, and hence, double yer magic item power. Seems like that's a advantageous trade.

At 15th level, it takes 1/2 of yer available XP to double yer Net Worth.......

At 20th level, it takes all of yer available XP ta increase yer Net Worth by only 65%.......

See where I'm goin' wit' this?

-Nail

 

[AGGEMAM]

By Anubis

It's in the section for creating NPCs on page 47 of the DMG. I figured it applied perfectly because NPCs have no reason to be created differently than PCs other than the already-established differences in net worth.

Well, that section says that self-created items are 70% MORE expensive than regular items.

And yes, PCs and NPCs should be created differently.