Question about resale prices for magic items.

[Ridley's Cohort]

I was using diamonds as an example of something that doesn't lose value as time passes, I was not comparing selling magic items to hocking a diamond ring.

Magic items are not comparable to trivial luxury goods like diamond rings - they have much more in common (in particular the higher-end ones, produced by high level casters with hundreds if not thousands of XP to spare) with works of art, antiques, vintage cars, etc. Yeah, you can end up selling any of those things for pennies if you're desperate and in a hurry, but the D&D system assumes that 1/2 price as a baseline even if you're being thorough, when in reality rare enough magic items should sell for several times their 'market' price.

PCs aren't always in a hurry, and I don't think I ever really played in a world in which the PCs (with their dozens of magical items and piles of loot, and excellent Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks) needed the merchants more than vice versa, although DMs usually have the tendency to run it that way regardless.

In my gaming experience selling magic items is a lot like hocking a diamond ring at the local pawn shop. And, yes, the PCs always are in a hurry. Why leave the spare +1 sword with a merchant for two or six months when I can have 3 or 4 good potions now and have a better crack at making real money through adventuring in the next few weeks.

What you are suggesting is penny wise pound foolish for someone with a very dangerous profession. A single well chosen potion can save your life.

I concede there should be ways to sell at a better price, or make a pretty penny as a professional magical artificer. But players/PCs do not seem willing to do what would be necessary to realistically get those better prices. Your experience may be different.

 

[Silveras]

And another thing...

Something else to consider, too, is that the pricing structure is meant to reinforce the idea that people are not out there mass-producing magic items like cars in the modern world. Each one is a time-intensive labor, and making them to sell is a self-defeating process. One does not make a wand of lightning bolt to sell it; one makes it to use it, normally. The closest to mass-production would be the noble or organization that keeps clerics and/or mages "on staff" to make magic items -- in that case, I would expect the organization/noble to absorb the gp cost of making the item.

Xavim, I agree that worlds need to have internal consistency about these sorts of things. So...

-PCs get paid 1/2 rate because nobody sells magic items. Some people may be willing to take a chance that the PCs are 'oddball' enough to actually be doing something so silly, but even then, they will only risk about half the "market value" of the item.

-PCs get paid 1/2 rate because they lose the other half to the Guild overseeing the place where they sell it.

-PCs get paid 1/2 rate because they are not merchants with lots of appropriate connections, and can't take the time to shop for a better buyer.

-PCs get paid 1/2 rate because they are selling 'found goods' that might have powerful owners looking to retrieve them.

On the other hand, there is no reason not to pay a PC "full price" for a magic item made on commission. Well, except that the Guild may have a say in the matter perhaps offering to make the same item at a lower price, or insisting that the PC pay the Guild some fee for infringing on its monopoly. But that's what adventure hooks and political/town adventures are about.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A FINISHED product, on the other hand, does have this depreciation. A gold ring is worth more than its weight in gold, because of the craftsmanship involved. So, the price of the ring should never drop below its raw material cost, but in D&D that's a flat 33.3%.

Unlike a gold ring, the material components used to create a magic sword are assumed to be mostly destroyed in the process. Break a +1 sword and by the book you have a broken masterwork sword worth <150 gp instead of 2300 gp. Break a gold ring and you have a lump of gold.

Traditional goldsmiths will give a flat price based on the weight of gold in your jewelry. Maybe a little bit more for a particularly fine piece they are certain they can resell. Again, if you leave the piece with the merchant for some number of months he might be able to find you a buyer and get you a better price (minus his fee).

I am describing common practices today in much of the non-industrialized world (though the traditional goldsmiths are a dying breed).

 

[Spatzimaus]

Unlike a gold ring, the material components used to create a magic sword are assumed to be mostly destroyed in the process.

True, although I've never been comfortable with that; the materials had to go SOMEWHERE. Okay, some of them were material components for the spells involved, but there's got to be something salvageable. I know it's not really "official", but look at the descriptions of wands and staves; they've got gems built into them, and yet a broken wand is "worthless".
IMC I've got an entire custom PRC based around the concept of salvaging magic items for parts. Just because most people wouldn't be able to scavenge anything useful from a magic item doesn't mean it's not possible.

Traditional goldsmiths will give a flat price based on the weight of gold in your jewelry.

Flat price yes, but it'd be more than the flat price for raw gold. Of course, in the modern era not too many people HAVE their own supply of gold bars, so this isn't an issue today, and jewelers can charge whatever the market will bear. And, since EVERYONE needs a gold+diamond ring for their engagements, weddings, and the occasional anniversary, the market can bear quite a lot.

Again, if you leave the piece with the merchant for some number of months he might be able to find you a buyer and get you a better price (minus his fee).

Right. D&D doesn't really model that very well. In a previous campaign, after a particularly vicious foray into the Abyss, most of the party decided to retire from serious adventuring and a few of us opened a magic shop. We still had to deal with a lot of stuff, and it allowed us to get cohorts and such to lead to the next campaign's characters, so the DM let us run with it.
In the process, we had to develop some D&D-compatible rules for more advanced economics, and create a large magical commerce guild to manage it.

The biggest issue is demand. What percentage of the population could actually USE a +5 keen adamantine battleaxe of wounding? Of the ones who could use it, how many can afford it? Of the ones who can afford it, how many would want those particular abilities in that particular weapon type? At one point, the city watch captain came into our shop and asked for 20 +1 swords and 100 masterwork swords. The city couldn't afford anything more, didn't trust the soldiers with anything more valuable (a +1 sword is worth more than everything else the soldier owns, combined), and didn't really need any extra capability.
Then, there's the question of the item's history. Will previous owners come looking for it? Can you be sure it's not cursed or intelligent? Even if it's cursed, some people will still want it anyway. Did you Identify it fully? We ended up creating a series of custom divinations just to deal with these sorts of things.
So, from the merchant's side of things, most items just aren't worth their "blue book" value. Sure, that battleaxe I mentioned may be worth 100k to a person who wants it, but what are the odds of finding the right buyer, given all the risks involved? It's more likely to sit in a warehouse until it's stolen, unless the merchant is part of a large, intercontinental magical mercantile guild capable of instantaneous travel to move rare items from a central, magically-protected storehouse to distribution nodes in each city as needed, and scavenging unsellable items for magical ingredients... which is where we came in. I suppose E-bay would work, too.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Here's how I've handled the sale of magic items, taking into account the difficulty of finding a buyer the more expensive the item gets:

I make a Gather Info check for the PC to locate a buyer for any given item, DC 10+1/1,000gp value. Each check represent 1d6-3 days worth of canvassing likely spots. The presumption is that that is in a big city. No matter what you roll, you'll never sell that Vorpal Blade in the 400 person village. I've considered also allowing a Knowledge: Arcana roll of the same DC to substitute, figuring that some buyers may be easier found through arcane contacts.

Specific expensive magic items are almost never found for sale. You may want to buy a Thundering Mace +2, but you may have to settle for the +1 flaming flail instead, if you MUST buy a magic weapon. Small stuff (1,000 gp or less) can be found from time to time.

EDIT: Note that really expensive items will have ludicrously high DC's to sell. I'm OK with that, because selling a 100,000 gp item should practically be an adventure in itself.

 

[Voadam]

Thus I present some sample situations and ask for opinions about sale values.

1) PC is an adventurer who found the Sword of Unhinged Squealing on a dungeon crawl. He comes to town, pops into the local magic item shop or blacksmithy, demonstrates the power of the blade, and sells it for:

a) Full market price
b) A price determined by some kind of contest of skill between the two.
c) Half market price
d) No sane merchant would keep 10,000-50,000 gold bits in his shop you fool!

2) PC finds the Sword of Unhinged Squealing on a dungeon crawl, and instead of selling in a store, he puts up flyers, circulates word...generally lets it be known that he has a badass sword for sale, and he's looking for a buyer. After a few days, some big burly warrior shows up and makes him an offer. The PC gets:

a) Full market price
b) A price determined by some kind of contest of skill between the two.
c) Half market price
d) Totally ripped off by a con artist!

3) The PC is an adventurer, but experiences a month or two of downtime while his buddy is making Robes of the Archmagi or something. So he rents out some shop space and starts selling off potions and scrolls and stuff...some that he's found, some that he makes himself. In that time he earns, for each item sold:

a) Full market price
b) A price determined by some kind of contest of skill (averaged, no doubt).
c) Half market price

4) There's an NPC shop owner. All he does all day long is craft stuff and sell it. Oh, and sometimes he buys it direct from wholesale sources (read: PC's). The tags on his inventory indicate that his items cost:

a) Full market price
b) A price determined by some kind of contest of skill.
c) Half market price

5) The PC's are fooling around town, and are overheard by some fighter. He comes up and explains that he's an adventurer too, but is looking to retire. He does however have this really cool Sword of Unhinged Squealing he'd like to sell, to get capital to open his business. So what do you say, guys? I'll only charge:

a) Full market price
b) A price determined by some kind of contest of skill.
c) Half market price

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Sorry for the test format there.

What I'm trying to do is isolate factors that I believe have been contaminating economic issues in my games. Factors like, "PC's and NPC's are subject to fundamentally different rules." And so on.

Clearly what is being sold, to whom, by whom, and in what capacity...all factor in. What I'm looking for is a way to sort of codify all that into a coherent set of rules that aren't "house rules," per se...just clarifications on an issue largely unaddressed in the core rules, as far as I can see.

Your help is appreciated.

Thanks!

Usually hand waving down time

Sell you get half.

Craft to sell you get full price.

First you need to find a buyer, usually custom order (they pick what they want you to make). Generic pawning is at 1/2 price but sold quickly, but selling non custom orders for full price takes time and effort in addition to crafting expenses and not always sell all before you need to go if roleplaying out realistic numbers.

1 C, pawning loot, only done at the magic shop, blacksmiths don't buy magic swords, they sell mundane ones they create, they are not middlemen purchasers but crafters. Not always an option, but for handwaving, can sell up to a certain price no problem, guaranteed.

2 could be A-D requires roleplaying and skill use (profession merchant? diplomacy and sense motive opposed roll? appraise?) maybe not even find a single buyer, maybe attract thief guild attention.

3 A-C Mixing and matching is a little tough to justify the reasoning. He has spent the time to be a crafter and set up a full business, but he might not sell them all and again like 2 issues come up about haggling etc. For handwaving, he can get guaranteed half price for loot but full price for guaranteed made by him potions.

4 A he crafts and does middleman buying to sell at full price full time professionally.

5 I would go with half market price, but roleplayed out, could be a scam. Trading among PCs in the game I play in we value loot magic at sale price (1/2 market price) and an npc in the same situation would and have been treated the same.