Question about Sleep (Wizard Attack 1)

[Trevelyan]

Hey ppl, I'm trying to get a ruling on whether Orb of Imposition can be applied to saves of both the "unconscious" and the "slowed" conditions, or only one of them (i.e. are the two conditions seen as one effect)... Any comments?

Purely to limit potential Orb abuse I would opt to treat them as separate effects for the purpose of the Orb of Imposition, thus you would have to both hit the enemy and wait for it to fail the initial save vs. Slow before you could penalie the save vs. Unconscious. It makes blatant abuse of the Orb with Sleep far less predictable.

This was the official verdict at one point or another, but I don't know whether things have changed in the interim.

 

[baberg]

Hey ppl, I'm trying to get a ruling on whether Orb of Imposition can be applied to saves of both the "unconscious" and the "slowed" conditions, or only one of them (i.e. are the two conditions seen as one effect)... Any comments?

I just had to make a ruling in my game about this same thing, and I ruled that the wording of the Orb power, the word "effect" in "one creature that... has an effect" is actually intended to read more like "status ailment" than the "Effect" keyword. So the Wizard casts Sleep, it hits, and the wizard can then choose to use the Orb ability to make it more likely that the creature will fall unconscious. If she doesn't, and the creature falls unconscious anyways, then she can decide to make it harder for the creature to become conscious again.

As a side note, the creature would be rolling 2 saves on its turn, once for unconsciousness and once for slow.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A heal check can grant a bonus to a saving throw or grant a saving throw, so actually you can wake up an unconscious character (or at least you can try).

 

[Heliac]

Originally Posted by baberg
As a side note, the creature would be rolling 2 saves on its turn, once for unconsciousness and once for slow.

Not quite... This is how it goes:

1. All targets in the area of effect are SLOWED and the wizard throws attack rolls against WILL.
2. The targets rolls his first save (against "slowed") at the end of his first turn after the spell came into effect (regardless of whether the spell was a hit against his WILL).
3. If the spell was a hit AND he misses his save in step 2, he now becomes UNCONSCIOUS. By RAW, he does not get another save this round.
4. If the target is now UNCONSCIOUS, he tries shake it off every round until successful. This happens at the end of his turn. Once again... only one save is allowed per round.
5. Once the target shakes off unconsciousness, he ends his turn immediately. The target is still SLOWED.
6. At the end of his subsequent turns, the target tries to shake off being slowed until successful.

 

[krugkopf]

No.

You make as many saving throws as you have effects.

PHB p.279

Saving Throws

• End of Turn: At the end of your turn, you make a saving throw against each effect on you that a save can end.
• Choose Order: Whenever you make a saving throw, you choose which effect to roll against first, which effect to roll against second, and so on.

Sleep causes two status effects. That means two saving throws. Furthermore, there's no order in which the saving throws must be successful. If an Unconscious, Slow creature succeeds only on its saving throw against Slow, it's still Unconscious. Its next turn, it need only make one saving throw against the Unconscious effect to begin the following turn with full movement.

It doesn't hurt roleplaying to do it this way either. For example...

1. (Player's turn, Sleep attack roll hits) "You see the monster's legs become wobbly, as though on the verge of passing out."
2. (Monster's 1st turn, fails Slow saving throw). "The monster takes a few steps towards you, but then its eyes roll back as its legs fold under it. It's snoring before it even hits the ground."

Possibility 1:

3. (End of M's 2nd turn, fails Unconscious saving throw, saves against Slow) "The monster begins to twitch rapidly, as though running in a dream."
4. (End of M's 3rd turn, saves against Unconscious) "The monster's eyes pop open. It's fully alert, and it looks pissed."
​

OR possibility 2:

3. (End of M's 2nd turn, saves Unconsicous, fails Slow) "The monster slowly opens its eyes. It's awake, but still moving lethargically."
4. (End of M's 3rd turn, saves Slow). "The monster's finally shakes off the last remnants of sleep."
​

OR possibility 3:

3. (End of M's 2nd turn, saves Unconscious, saves Slow) "The monster's snores end abruptly. Its eyes jerk open, and it looks unwaveringly at you."
​

OR possibility 4:

3. (End of M's 2nd turn, fails both). "The monster continues to take each breath slowly and deeply."​

 

[Heliac]

No.
Sleep causes two status effects. That means two saving throws. Furthermore, there's no order in which the saving throws must be successful.

Well, normally I would agree, but read a bit further on that same page:

Some powers create effects that require multiple saving throws to fully escape. These powers include aftereffects that apply after you save against the initial effect. For example, a power might knock you unconscious until you save but have an aftereffect that slows you. Once you save against the unconscious condition, you need to save against the slowed condition before you’ve fully escaped the power’s effects.
An aftereffect doesn’t begin until after you’ve rolled all your saving throws at the end of your turn. This means you can’t make a saving throw against an aftereffect at the end of the same turn when you saved against the initial effect.

There is only one power in the enitre PHB that these two paragraphs could be referring to, the wizard's Sleep power...

 

[Vegepygmy]

There is only one power in the enitre PHB that these two paragraphs could be referring to, the wizard's Sleep power...

There are no powers in the Player's Handbook that have an aftereffect. There are, however, powers with an aftereffect in Martial Power and the druid class (and probably elsewhere).

When a power has an aftereffect, it gets its own Aftereffect: line, such as...

Aftereffect: 3d6 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage, and the target grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn.