Question about the Warforged

[Shae]

Hi Everyone,

I recently got back into D&D after fifteen plus years and was asked to Co-GM a friend's game (the GM is still pretty new at it and wanted someone to be there in case anything went bad). Suffice to say, when I started playing, it was a bit of a shock to me (the last time I played the game, it was AD&D and I was twelve). One of the players is playing a Warforged from the Eberron world. This player is making the game literally a nightmare.

He's what I have come to call a rules lawyer and has manipulated his character creation to the point where his lvl 4 Warforged Artificer can create numerous minions and has an AC of in the high thirties/ early forties.

My question is this: Can a Warforged be disenchanted?

My understanding of them are that they are magical contructs. If that's the case, there is a slight possibility that the magical forces that animate them can be negated. That is my thought, but I want to be absolutely certain before I say anything.

Now, before anyone says that it's not right to do such a drastic thing, I have to point out that in order just to prove a challenge to this character, we are all thrust into ungodly situations where it's unlikely that any of us, but him, will survive. He constantly argues with the GM about the rules in such a fashion that it's really borderline rude, and nothing the GM can do seems to knock him down a peg or two.

I'm not really sure why the GM keeps this player in the game, but has already stated that this individual will not be kicked from the group. The game started out really fun, and I can see that the other players are really starting to get sick of it as well.

Sorry to just unload about it, but I really just have to know. If I posted this in the wrong area, I apologize. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

-Shae

 

[krupintupple]

My question is this: Can a Warforged be disenchanted?

Welcome back to the game!

Unfortunately, I hope that your return isn't soured by this obvious powergamer munchkin. If he respected the other players (you) and not just the DM, he'd stand down this killing machine and allow everyone to enjoy the game. It doesn't help that the DM is allowing it though, unless he has some master plan to totally screw this guy over or something and is keeping quiet for now...

Anyhow, Warforged have the 'living construct' subtype and a whole suite of enviable traits and abilities to start with; they're quite powerful for a LA0 race, but are commonplace within the Eberron universe. If used outside of this universe, things can start to mess up as people are less used to them and can counter them less and less.

They cannot be disenchanted, but they are screwed over by the various Rusting Grasp, Rusting Ray or the touch of a rust monster. Send some templated rust monsters after him - his enemies would know his weaknesses by now.

Also, the artificer is incredibly powerful, given enough time to fiddle with things - it should really be an NPC class IMHO, and only used as a PC class if the other players don't agree to sit around for weeks while he overpowers himself through the ceiling!

 

[Runestar]

The artificer is one of the most powerful classes in the game, since it has ready access to magic eq, and the bulk of a character's power comes from his gear anyways. I suppose you could count your blessings that you are not looking at an AC of 50 at lv12 or something...

 

[Herzog]

A warforged artificer is one of the most powerfull combinations possible... if you let him get away with it.

Remember: item creation takes time, money and XP. although the artificer has a craft reserve, it is limited. if he is creating minions: are you talking about homunculi?

My own artificer is only allowed one (same as familiar) and although the rules aren't crystal clear on that, it could be a sensible ruling.
second, those homunculi are very easely destroyed unless he has added several HD to them. the latter costs a lot of additional money, and is restricted to (correct me if i'm wrong) a maximum HD of half the artificer level or less.
third, the body of each homonculi should be custom made, you can't just buy one, and the creation time of each should be taken into account as well.

I'd also like to see a specification of how he achieved that high AC. don't forget that bonusses of the same type don't stack, and enhancement bonusses have a maximum of +5 at pre-epic levels.

If you can provide more specific data:
You've got a lot of rule-lawyers at your disposal right here to help you counter his arguments!

 

[Starbuck_II]

My question is this: Can a Warforged be disenchanted?

No more than any golem can be. They can't. They are creature now.

 

[Runestar]

Remember: item creation takes time, money and XP. although the artificer has a craft reserve, it is limited.

To hell with the craft reserve. In 3.5, a PC of lower lv than the rest of the party gets more xp compared to the rest, which in turn translates to more eq he can craft. Don't forget the various feats which reduce item creation costs (and consequently, time) as well.

At 9th lv, he should be capable of at least 96d6 damage (someone reported managing 144d6, but I cannot find the source, so I guess we have to settle for second best).

Level 1: Energy Substitution (sonic,) Skill Focus (UMD)
Level 3: Twin Spell
Level 6: Energy Admixture (sonic)
Level 9: Quicken Spell


Packing his Wand of Scorching Ray, our man can, given a couple of rounds of prep time, squeeze off 96d6 damage, no save--12 4d6 firebolts, and 12 4d6 sonic bolts. In a dire emergency, he can do this without prep time, but he's going to be burning up a lot of extra charges--12 of 'em, to be exact. ("Set phasers to overload, Mr. Sulu!")

That's an average of 336 damage, assuming all of the bolts hit...probably a good bit less than that in reality, since SOME of the bolts will miss, but some will also crit. Any way you slice it, a substantial amount of damage for a ninth level character.

However, blasting is not their true forte. Their real strength lies in buffing the rest of the party through their gills and having them rape the rest of the opposition.

And I will have to get back to you regarding the AC50 part. I know I say the thread a few weeks back, but I can't seem to locate it now.

 

[Herzog]

Don't forget the various feats which reduce item creation costs (and consequently, time) as well.

ehm. no.
First, (i think) you are confusing magic item creation and crafting. Crafting time of the mundane counterpart of the item is not reduced by those feats.
Second, there are three feats. (with errata.)
They don't stack. Not with themselves, and not with eachother.
They have impact only on their mentioned creation cost.

the feat that reduces gp cost does just that. creation time and xp cost are not influenced.
the feat that reduces xp cost does just that. no gp reduction or time reduction.
the feat that reduces time does just that. no gp reduction, no xp reduction.

I'll take your blasting example for granted.

As for buffing the rest of the party: if that were the case with the player the OP is mentioning, there wouldn't be a problem. The problem is (probably) that he's keeping all that magic item goodness for himself.

Regarding that: if the artificer has enough gp and time to build all those magic items, the rest of the party should be able to buy at least half of that equipment.
And if that isn't enough, their characters should probably be complaining that the artificer isn't pulling his weight in the party. (after all, his task is not to replace the wizard or the fighter, but to provide magic items for the party)

 

[Runestar]

I am referring to the feat from player's guide to faerun which reduces the cost of crafting using a specific feat by 25% (which would impact gp, xp and time costs accordingly).

(after all, his task is not to replace the wizard or the fighter, but to provide magic items for the party)

You will have to define what it means to pull one's weight, since the artificer appears versatile enough to assume any 1 role (he just can't take on all of them) using the right mix of magic eq. You can argue that blasting is not an optimal route for him, but you cannot deny its effectiveness...

 

[Shae]

Welcome back to the game!

Unfortunately, I hope that your return isn't soured by this obvious powergamer munchkin. If he respected the other players (you) and not just the DM, he'd stand down this killing machine and allow everyone to enjoy the game. It doesn't help that the DM is allowing it though, unless he has some master plan to totally screw this guy over or something and is keeping quiet for now...

Honestly, over the past couple of gaming sessions, it really has left a sour taste in my mouth. I came back to enjoy this game, not to have to endure this player's combat turns that take thirty minutes minimum every time, their constant attitude that if another member of the party got something that is desired by that player, this person will fight them for it, and to continue see this person turn around and continue to bog everything down just to prove that he knows (apparently) EVERYTHING about this game.

I have no idea why this individual was allowed to play such a powerful character. I was asked to be the Co-GM because the GM is at their wits end with this player. Like I said, the GM has thrown ungodly things at us and nothing has even slowed him down.

Remember: item creation takes time, money and XP. although the artificer has a craft reserve, it is limited. if he is creating minions: are you talking about homunculi?

I think that is what he called them...I do remember that player saying that word.

My own artificer is only allowed one (same as familiar) and although the rules aren't crystal clear on that, it could be a sensible ruling.
second, those homunculi are very easely destroyed unless he has added several HD to them. the latter costs a lot of additional money, and is restricted to (correct me if i'm wrong) a maximum HD of half the artificer level or less.

I'll talk with the GM about possibly placing that restriction...though I expect an argument from the player about what are and are not the printed limitations of a Warforged.

As far as the minions being easily destroyed...well...they took an ungodly amount of damage (more damage than any other player could hope to take) and their AC was also in the mid-twenties (from what I was told...during the combat I had gotten so disgusted I had to walk away from the table. The GM told me what happened afterward)

third, the body of each homonculi should be custom made, you can't just buy one, and the creation time of each should be taken into account as well.

How long does it take to create a humunuli?

I'd also like to see a specification of how he achieved that high AC. don't forget that bonusses of the same type don't stack, and enhancement bonusses have a maximum of +5 at pre-epic levels.

If you can provide more specific data:
You've got a lot of rule-lawyers at your disposal right here to help you counter his arguments!

I haven't seen this Warforged character sheet (it was made before I joined and was asked to be Co-GM). And I'm glad I have you guys to ask, cheers for that

To hell with the craft reserve. In 3.5, a PC of lower lv than the rest of the party gets more xp compared to the rest, which in turn translates to more eq he can craft. Don't forget the various feats which reduce item creation costs (and consequently, time) as well.

At 9th lv, he should be capable of at least 96d6 damage (someone reported managing 144d6, but I cannot find the source, so I guess we have to settle for second best).

No, the Warforged is the same level as everyone else in the party. One thing the GM was very clear about was that he wanted to ensure that everyone was on an equal standing. I also have to say it's a bit disheartening to hear that one the Warforged gets to that level, it'll be dealing that much damage. I have to wonder why they're allowed to be played as a race.

When you put it into the context that the rest of us are doing 1d6 to 2d8+9 (that's a golem that a player recently picked up in a dungeon), it's unbalancing. Especially when in one turn of combat where this player jumped to conclusion came within a few points of killing my Rogue in the first turn.

However, blasting is not their true forte. Their real strength lies in buffing the rest of the party through their gills and having them rape the rest of the opposition.

The only problem with that is he doesn't boost the rest of the party...the player spends his time killing everything on his own before we can really get a shot at it and threatening to kill us if he learns that we have something that he wants.

As for buffing the rest of the party: if that were the case with the player the OP is mentioning, there wouldn't be a problem. The problem is (probably) that he's keeping all that magic item goodness for himself.

You are correct...or hording whatever special items he wants from us by strongarming us (I might make it sound like he does this constantly, but only one situation came up...and he strongarmed the player into giving it up. It just really kind of offends me)

Regarding that: if the artificer has enough gp and time to build all those magic items, the rest of the party should be able to buy at least half of that equipment.
And if that isn't enough, their characters should probably be complaining that the artificer isn't pulling his weight in the party. (after all, his task is not to replace the wizard or the fighter, but to provide magic items for the party)

From the time that we got to a certain location and when he crafted the humunculi, I think that only a day (maybe two) passed. As far as the equipment needed, I think he had or went and bought the items himself...none of the party is willing to help him out after his tactics.

Since being asked to Co-GM, I've been given the task of making things a little more difficult for the player's through role-playing (the GM is familiar with the other games I run and likes the deviousness that I can bring)...but even I'm at a loss for what to do. Perhaps it's just that I'm not familiar with any of this and don't know what's what...but it seems like this player uses his vast knowledge of the game to make decisions for his character, and I'm just not sure his character would know these things.

In the last gaming session, the Warforged has upset a well-connected and evil cleric, and I was hoping that a simple dispell bomb (or something similar) would just make it a whole lot easier. I must admit, my evil tendencies are a bit deflated.

I'm not sure what else I can do (ecept maybe now perhaps come up with some sort of rust nuke). I look forward to getting some advice. And please fogive me for any noobish-ness, I'm still trying to sift trhough all the books I have to in order to be 'in-the-know' once more.

I really just want to see the players enjoy themselves, as this game should be enjoyed. When I look across the table now, I only see one smiling face when it comes to game play, and that upsets me. In the games I have run, if certain rules have gotten in the way of an enjoyable experience, then those rules were ignored (unless of course they were absolutely vital...then they were tweaked). Again, any help you guys can give would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
-Shae

 

[Starbuck_II]

Honestly, over the past couple of gaming sessions, it really has left a sour taste in my mouth. I came back to enjoy this game, not to have to endure this player's combat turns that take thirty minutes minimum every time, their constant attitude that if another member of the party got something that is desired by that player, this person will fight them for it, and to continue see this person turn around and continue to bog everything down just to prove that he knows (apparently) EVERYTHING about this game.
[/wuote]
This is a roleplaying pronblem: not a mechanics issue. He has done nothing wrong mechanically.

As far as the minions being easily destroyed...well...they took an ungodly amount of damage (more damage than any other player could hope to take) and their AC was also in the mid-twenties (from what I was told...during the combat I had gotten so disgusted I had to walk away from the table. The GM told me what happened afterward)

Give us a sample one: ask the player to show you it. Then copy all info needed. (HP, Bab, Stats, resistences like DR).

When you put it into the context that the rest of us are doing 1d6 to 2d8+9 (that's a golem that a player recently picked up in a dungeon), it's unbalancing. Especially when in one turn of combat where this player jumped to conclusion came within a few points of killing my Rogue in the first turn.

How did he pick up a golem? Did you mean create?

In the last gaming session, the Warforged has upset a well-connected and evil cleric, and I was hoping that a simple dispell bomb (or something similar) would just make it a whole lot easier. I must admit, my evil tendencies are a bit deflated.

If you have to nuke: there is always Mage's Nuke (Mordakain's Disjunction). Be warned that when you use a nuke that means all safeties are off the table.

The player is probably not even going full power and is holding back I think. Once you nuke, he loses reason to hold back.

Just like the movie War Games: Only way to win is not to play that nuke.