Question Concerning Jumping

[zepherus]

Hello, all -

Since I have not been able to find anything to categorically answer my question in any rulebook ( at least not to my satisfaction ), I will throw this out to get everyone's opinion.

Here's the scenario - PC's are being attacked by a pair of Large warhounds. these WH's have a jump skill of +19. A PC casts a 15 foot stone wall around one of them, to segregate him so they can focus on the other. Ceilings in the room are 30 feet high. The wall completely surrounds him, so in effect he has a normal wall behind him, and a 3-sided wall surrounding him with no extra space beyond his 10 by 10 square. I hope this makes sense.

Now, the WH decides to jump over the wall ( or at least jump up to the top, and then jump off ). I decided this would be a full round action for him to accomplish this.

So, I roll a 17, and state that this is good enough for the WH to accomplish what he set out to do ( for this particular instance, I assigned a DC of 30 ). One of the player's says that that's not good enough, that since the WH is 4-legged, then he only has a vertical reach of 8 feet, and the DC to vertically jump to the top of the wall should be 60 ( 4 times the height being attempted ). My skill check of 36 wouldn't cut it.

After a "heated" discussion concerning the jumping abilities of our 4-legged friends ( especially hounds ), I pulled the "DM" card and said that I was ruling that he made it, and let's move on. Yet, it still bugs me that I can't figure out a way within the rules to state that I was correct ( or that I was wrong ).

So, with all of the rule-mavens out there, what do you say about this predicament? What would it take for a WH that is 8-9 feet tall at the shoulder to be able to get over a 15 foot high wall from standing?

Thanks!

Z-

 

[irdeggman]

You were in error and your player was correct.

Rules Compendium pg 92-93 (or PHB pg 77 has what you need.

High Jump (which is what you are trying to have them do).

A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach something overhead. the DC is equal to four times the distance to be cleared. Vertical reach can help you reach your intended height.

If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired hieght. If you want to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. If you fail the Jump check, you don't reach the height, and you land in the space you jumped from./quote]

Also note that the jump check assumes at least a 20 ft move or the DC is doubled.

Hop Up.

You can jump up onto an object as tall as your waist, such as a table or small boulder, with a DC 10 jump check. Doing so counts as 10 feet of movement,. . .You do not need to get a running start to hop up so the DC is not coubled if you do not get a running start.

DC to "reach" 15 ft is 4 x 15 = DC 60.

Vertical reach is not going to help since the hounds can't "grab onto something" to pull themselves up. Even if it did a quadraped is treated as 1 size smaller.

A large creature (the table on the same page) has a vertical reach of 16 ft a medium one has 8 ft.

The other question is the top of the wall wide enough for a large quadraped to "land on" since he cannot use his hands to assist.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Player was right, though jump is part of your movement, not a full round action. DC should also be doubledfor no running start, as noted.

If you wanted to "pull the DM card" it should have been to grant a reflex save when the spell was cast for the creature to leap outside of the enclosure (using DC of a spell of that level w/ caster's stat, as normal).

What is the WH's speed? It could try to climb half its speed as a move action. I don't know if it should be able to, but it's a thought.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Vertical reach is not going to help since the hounds can't "grab onto something" to pull themselves up.

I agree with everything irdeggman (and StreamOfTheSky) wrote except this. I see no reason why a warhound couldn't grab onto the top of the wall and pull itself up, so I would rule the warhound needs to make a 7-foot vertical jump (DC 4 x 7 = 28, doubled for no running start = 56).

Which means it will never make the jump with only a +19 Jump modifier.

 

[frankthedm]

Now just to be clear, it take 18 5' squares to make that 3 sided 15' high enclosure. The caster needed to be 18th level to pull it off.

If you wanted to "pull the DM card" it should have been to grant a reflex save when the spell was cast for the creature to leap outside of the enclosure (using DC of a spell of that level w/ caster's stat, as normal).

That is not pulling the DM card. That's how the spell works and the user of the spell [PC] was supposed to inform the affected party[DM controlling the hell hound] of the save. If they didn't, that's tantamount to cheating.

If the Nessian Warhound had a 20' start, the only issue is if the hellhound's ability to climb is impacted by the "Natural Tendencies" rule. And If the DM rules that the hellish perversion of a hound can climb at the same capacity of a human, so be it.

Reading The Monster Entries :: d20srd.org
Skills ~ Natural Tendencies
Some creatures simply aren’t made for certain types of physical activity. If it seems clear that a particular creature simply is not made for a particular physical activity, that creature takes a -8 penalty on skill checks that defy its natural tendencies.

In extreme circumstances the creature fails the check automatically.

[sblock=whoops, reversed the positions disregard this section]

[imagel]http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/5627/puppyvf1.th.png[/imagel]

DC 36 is 9 feet, plus 8 feet of vertical reach, putting the hellhound right were it needs to be to invoke a clmb check.

Jump :: d20srd.org
High Jump

If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired height. If you wish to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. If you fail the Jump check, you do not reach the height, and you land on your feet in the same spot from which you jumped. As with a long jump, the DC is doubled if you do not get a running start of at least 20 feet.

So the hellhound still needs to roll the one climb check, with a mod of +8 or +0 depending on the DM's decision on Natural Tendencies. If it makes that check, it is over the wall and falling prone into the wizard's enclosure. It is probably going to be forced to use the squeezing rules until it eats the wizard.[/sblock]

 

[Kask]

Canines can't climb well?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ13Wcx4wjQ]YouTube - Re: The Great Dog Escape[/ame]

 

[frankthedm]

That is a very light dog, combined with a very forgiving surface. But it is also an example of

Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls (reduces DC by 10).
Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls (reduces DC by 5).

 

[Nail]

FWIW, the real issue is that Wall of Stone allows a saving throw if you trap a creature.

The trick, of course, is to cast it so that the creature isn't trapped per se. Mostly, this means getting your tank to be standing in the only exit out of the Wall of Stone space.