Question on a dragon's crush attack - can it do this?

[NewJeffCT]

I was thinking to have my size Gargantuan dragon attempt to use its crush attack on a few PCs if it has the opportunity.

1) If the dragon successfully crushes 2-3 size medium/small PCs (humans, elves, dwarves and a halfling in the group of 9), would it then be able to use its other melee attacks the next round while continuing the crush? How about its breath weapon? I ask because I think the dragon may try to crush a spellcaster or two to get them out of the action, but wouldn't do that at the expense of being unable to use its other attacks while taking a melee pounding from the other 6-7 players.

2) If the dragon loses initiative and one PCs flies up above another PC, would the dragon coming from up high be able to snatch/grapple flying PC with its 50+ grapple score on the way down and also do its crush? I am assuming both are within the dragon's 20x20 crush radius.

 

[frankthedm]

Looking over crush, I'm not so sure it sounds very efficient against a large party.

Crush (Ex)

This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).


A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned,

automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round
Dragon sacrifices a whole round to set this up.

unless the dragon moves off them.
"You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action;"

If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack.
So to keep the crushing the Dragon must devote BAB based grapple attacks to pinning foes because of the 3.5 changes to pinning. Also this means it can only maintain the pin on 4 foes, again due to how pinning has to be refreshed each round

Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.
this got hella-nerfed by the 3.5 rule change to pin.

 

[zendruid]

Unfortunately for your dragon I believe the following will apply as you have to maintain the grapple/pin/crush per normal grapple rules.

Grappling Consequences
While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend
yourself is limited.
No Threatened Squares: You don’t threaten any squares while
grappling.
No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if
you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still
use it against opponents you are grappling.)
No Movement: You can’t move normally while grappling. You
may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move
while grappling.

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an
unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another
character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are
light weapons.

Multiple Grapplers
Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants
can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that
are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half,
creatures that are one size category larger than you count double,
and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.
When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose
one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is
an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your
grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.

 

[zendruid]

Oh and to answer number 2 no. The crush itself is a standard action not part of a full-attack so no attacks then crushing in the same round.

 

[NewJeffCT]

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned,

automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round
[/SIZE]Dragon sacrifices a whole round to set this up.

unless the dragon moves off them.
"You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action;"

If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack.
So to keep the crushing the Dragon must devote BAB based grapple attacks to pinning foes because of the 3.5 changes to pinning. Also this means it can only maintain the pin on 4 foes, again due to how pinning has to be refreshed each round

Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.
this got hella-nerfed by the 3.5 rule change to pin.

Except for a few weeks at the beginning of 3E in late 2000, I did not play 3.0 due to a job that required an extreme amount of hours. What was the 3.0 rule on pinning?

But, if it cannot use its other attacks (breath weapon or bite, claw, tail) while sitting on its foes, the dragon obviously would not do that against a party of 7 PCs and 3 NPCs. I don't think it could get all 4 with a single crush attack, so it could get 2-3 maybe and crush them, but then would take melee/spell damage from the other 7-8. I'm not worried about losing threatened squares because the dragon has a Dex of 10 and can only make 1 attack of opportunity, and against 7-8 foes, it's not a huge loss.

However, when we played before, we said that when the player's druidic ally had summoned a girallon to help them, the girallon could make 4 grapple attempts because it had 4 arms and 4 attacks. Is the dragon using its body for its crush attack grapple, and then can use its other attacks (bite, 2 claws, 2 wings & tail slap) for other melee attacks? Or, did we play the girallon incorrectly before?

 

[zendruid]

You can use any attack during a full attack action to initiate a grapple (you can also use attacks of opportunity to do so). Once you are grappling a single opponent all the regular grapple rules apply. Including grappling multiple opponents. I don't think you can attack anyone outside the grapple once you are in it though. No loony tunes style ball of combatants and dust where an occasionaly arm reaches out and pulls someone else into the melee.

I love grapple, I have built several characters around it. My favorite was an awakened ape who loved to pin mages to prevent them from casting spells.

That is probably your dragon's best option. Pin the casters prevent the spells from being cast (unless they are both stilled and silenced spells).

If he can take the melee/ranged hits for three or four rounds he should be able to take the casters out before they can cast many spells. That crush damage is nasty and it adds 1 1/2 str too.

 

[NewJeffCT]

You can use any attack during a full attack action to initiate a grapple (you can also use attacks of opportunity to do so). Once you are grappling a single opponent all the regular grapple rules apply. Including grappling multiple opponents. I don't think you can attack anyone outside the grapple once you are in it though. No loony tunes style ball of combatants and dust where an occasionaly arm reaches out and pulls someone else into the melee.

I love grapple, I have built several characters around it. My favorite was an awakened ape who loved to pin mages to prevent them from casting spells.

Well, my players beefed up one of my previous monsters considerably then. They had faced a marilith and it grappled one of the players with its tail & did its constrict damage. Next round, I said that it will drop its grapple and attack with its 6 arms, and they told me that the marilith could maintain its grapple and attack with its 6 arms since the tail was a separate attack from the 6 arms... (the marilith can do constriction damage and possibly render a foe unconscious, which was my intention to prevent the party cleric from doing a Banishment/Dismissal.) Since I'm not a rules expert and one of my players edited some 3E rule books, I went with their correction.

 

[FEADIN]

You can use the Breath weapon or cast a spell, it's ok under the Grapple rules.
If the dragon has Improved grab (not Improved grapple) he can maintain the pin (not an action under "Crush") once the first round is over and use all his attacks, he just gets a -20 on the opposed grapple check if the "crushed" want to free themselves.

 

[zendruid]

Ahh yes I just read that section in the dragon description about grapple that allows it to use it's breath weapon, spells, and spell like abilities (as long as it makes it's concentration check).

Unfortunately the dragon would not have improved grab (at least not normally) as it says in the dragon's grapple desc that it does not prefer to grapple and later under the feats per hit die section improved grab is not listed. So this would have to be a mexican wrestling green dragon. La Serpenta Verde.

 

[NewJeffCT]

You can use the Breath weapon or cast a spell, it's ok under the Grapple rules.
If the dragon has Improved grab (not Improved grapple) he can maintain the pin (not an action under "Crush") once the first round is over and use all his attacks, he just gets a -20 on the opposed grapple check if the "crushed" want to free themselves.

Ah, but if you look in the Draconomicon, it says the following:

5) On the dragon’s next turn, it can choose to maintain the pin or to release pinned characters. If it tries to maintain the pin, it makes a single grapple check opposed by grapple checks made by all pinned opponents. Creatures who beat the dragon’s grapple check take no damage, while other creatures take the dragon’s full crush damage. If the dragon decides not to maintain the pin, it can act normally, without regard to the creatures that share its space (since they are necessarily at least three sizes smaller than it is).

It is not clear if it can do more than just maintaining a pin from the text. However, you indicate that it would have to make a grab check at -20 in order to do a full attack? However, you also state that maintaining the pin is not an option, but according to the Draconomicon, it is.

Also, can anybody weigh in about the opposed grapple check. Does the dragon's +58 go against the 2-3 crushed opponents - say, one is a +15, one is a +10 and one is a +18? Do, I add up the 3 opponents into a +43? (meaning, the PC's have a slight chance of winning) Or, do I use the dragon's d20+58 against each individual and the PCs have no chance at all?