Question on Crusader out of ToB

[Gorin Stonecleaver]

Ok at first level a Crusader knows 5 maneuvers and 1 stance. It is my understanding that the crusader must choose a discipline to follow either Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, or White Raven. Is this correct? If so there are less than 5 maneuvers for each of the disciplines at first level. Reading the advancement section for crusader seems to say I can learn and train all 3 disciplines if I have max ranks in the appropriate skill. Help please the rules seem to contradict themselves. If you choose to follow only one discipline you have fewer maneuvers than the class allows, in the case of the crusader this is not a drawback as it eliminates the randomness from my maneuvers in combat. As an example at 1st level devoted spirit has only 2 strikes and 2 stances. So I would have no random draw for my maneuvers I get them both each encounter. Would this be correct? All comments welcome.

 

[hong]

No, you do not "choose a discipline to follow". Think of disciplines as more like schools of magic; you pick maneuvers (spells) from those disciplines (schools) that are open to you. Who you worship is entirely separate.

 

[James McMurray]

Pay attention to prereqs for higher level maneuvers though. Some of the nicer ones require you to focus more on a single discipline.

 

[Particle_Man]

Oh, and you do not need ANY ranks of the associated skills in order to take maneuvers in a discipline. There are some feats that make you use the appropriate skill rolls, but that is about it.

Diamond Mind has maneuvers that require Concentration checks, and the Tiger one requires some Jump checks for some maneuvers, and Desert Storm has a sweet first level stance that is based on ranks in Balance. But none of that is Crusader stuff.

I think you can get by on White Raven, Stone Dragon and Devoted Spirit without any ranks in Diplomacy, Intimidate, or whatever Stone Dragon uses. The only exception I can think of is that Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances don't work if you are not on the ground, so it might be a good idea to put ranks in Balance to avoid falling into the pool of lava, etc.

 

[Vysirez]

As the above posters said, you have access to all 3 schools as a 1st level crusader. While this does make it better, I still found the situation funny after thinking about how I would build a 1st level crusader. With only those 3 schools available, if you don't count stances, there are only 6 maneuvers total for a 1st lvl crusader to choose from. Since you start with 5 maneuvers, it's more that you pick the 1 1st lvl maneuver you don't want.

 

[brehobit]

As the above posters said, you have access to all 3 schools as a 1st level crusader. While this does make it better, I still found the situation funny after thinking about how I would build a 1st level crusader. With only those 3 schools available, if you don't count stances, there are only 6 maneuvers total for a 1st lvl crusader to choose from. Since you start with 5 maneuvers, it's more that you pick the 1 1st lvl maneuver you don't want.

Yep. And what's _really_ funny is that you start forgetting some of them at 4th level. By 12th level you don't know any of them (probably!)

Mark

 

[Mistwell]

As the above posters said, you have access to all 3 schools as a 1st level crusader. While this does make it better, I still found the situation funny after thinking about how I would build a 1st level crusader. With only those 3 schools available, if you don't count stances, there are only 6 maneuvers total for a 1st lvl crusader to choose from. Since you start with 5 maneuvers, it's more that you pick the 1 1st lvl maneuver you don't want.

What's even worse is that two of those maneuvers are identical (Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack).

I love this book, but it sure could use a web update with some new maneuvers.

 

[shilsen]

What's even worse is that two of those maneuvers are identical (Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack).

No, they're not. Vanguard Strike gives you a +4 unnamed bonus and Leading the Attack gives a +4 morale bonus. That makes a big difference, because it means the latter won't stack with many effects. And the two maneuver effects stack with each other.

 

[Mistwell]

No, they're not. Vanguard Strike gives you a +4 unnamed bonus and Leading the Attack gives a +4 morale bonus. That makes a big difference, because it means the latter won't stack with many effects. And the two maneuver effects stack with each other.

It's a difference, but it's not a big difference. Stacking with each other is not relevant for a single character, since they can't use both at the same time. And while it won't stack with a couple of things out there that grant morale bonuses, 95% of the time it will work just fine. Really, they are the same maneuver with different names, which is a shame given the extreme lack of maneuvers for a 1st level Crusader to choose from (which was my point).

 

[shilsen]

It's a difference, but it's not a big difference. Stacking with each other is not relevant for a single character, since they can't use both at the same time. And while it won't stack with a couple of things out there that grant morale bonuses, 95% of the time it will work just fine. Really, they are the same maneuver with different names, which is a shame given the extreme lack of maneuvers for a 1st level Crusader to choose from (which was my point).

And here I thought your point was that they are identical I'm not saying that aren't very similar. I was just responding to the "identical" comment.