Question on jumping

[JohnnyO]

This has tripped my group up before.

One thing to realize is that the difference between long jump/high jump. For example, the long jump rules determine how many SQUARES you cover, while the high jump rules determine how many FEET you clear.

 

[Grydan]

Nothing specifically in the rules prohibits running in a circle, or even back and forth, and for a high jump I'm not sure I would argue that much. For a long jump, I'd argue it has to be roughly in the same direction. Two additional comments, though:

1. Grydan, I think your calculations are a little off, but for a slightly different reason. To attack someone you need to be in an adjacent square. From a 3D "voxel" perspective, down 1 and to the side is okay, so the PC merely needs to clear 15ft (3 squares) with his feet (else he's not in the square). This requires a check DC (with "running") of 75. At what height of clearing does the PC count to be in the adjacent square? Note that a grab is an attack and therefore there are restrictions on where you can attack from. Thinking horizontally, you can't "lunge" from two squares away, so I don't think this should be allowed vertically either. Alternatively, you just need to figure how much above 20ft is necessary for a grab attack. Is 1ft enough? Therefore, 21ft-10ft (height+reach) = 11ft, and therefore the check DC is a measly 55. I wouldn't say that reaching exactly 20ft is sufficient.
2. A quirk in the rules strongly favors not recording your height, especially for small PCs. It's absolutely ridiculous, but there it is. If you don't record your height, small and medium creatures simply use 10ft for the combination of height + reach. This would imply that all small and medium creatures are about 7.5ft tall.

1. While you may need to be in an adjacent square to attack someone, the rules specifically refer to Reaching Something. I'd say that when something is flying, the rules really want you to be a bit more specific about how high it is than specifying the square. If we're bothering to calculate the height of a jump and a characters reach to values of feet and inches, then we're probably expected to know the height of what they're grabbing to equal precision.
   
   That said, sure, DM discretion could rule you need to get your feet into an adjacent square for an attack. It just leads to oddities that you need to jump a different distance to grab a limb that's at a certain height than a rope that's at the same height.
   .
2. Huh. That rules quirk is... goofy. The tall end of the listed height range for halflings is 4' 2"*. By the rules, a 4' 2" halfing has a reach of 5' 6" when jumping... unless he "forgets" to record his height, in which case his reach is 10 feet.
   
   I knew there were reasons why I insist on each player recording the height and weight of their characters...
   
   I'd be tempted to scale the listed default reaches down a bit, to more reasonable numbers, but it's probably easiest to just enforce that players need to record their height.
   
   * Of course, the height range listed is not a hard limit, merely the suggested average range. There's actually no rule that I am aware of that restricts you from saying that your halfling is, in fact, a 7' 6" tall small creature. Good luck convincing your DM, though.

 

[Riastlin]

* Of course, the height range listed is not a hard limit, merely the suggested average range. There's actually no rule that I am aware of that restricts you from saying that your halfling is, in fact, a 7' 6" tall small creature. Good luck convincing your DM, though.

Heh, could lead to some amusing roleplaying "You think I'm tall? You should see my uncle Treebeard, now he's tall!"

 

[delericho]

I don't really know any other 4e DM's, so my questions are these: per the RAW, can a PC even do the circle run thing to make a running jump in virtually all circumstances, and if this is technically legal per the RAW, does it feel gamey to anybody else, or am I just being a stick in the mud?

Yes, strictly per the RAW that is a legit way of getting a running jump. And yes, that does feel very gamey.

Basically, I'm of the opinion that the 4e jump rules are utterly insane and could use a good rewrite from the ground up.

 

[S'mon]

To be honest, I don't recall who came up with the wall running explanation but it sounded cool, and certainly followed the "Rule of Cool" so I was fine with the explanation.

You do make a good point though about asking the players to come up with an explanation. This is good if for no other reason than to encourage players to think outside the box rather than just "athletics". I'm not sure though I mind providing the explanation if it seems obvious to me, but in those cases, I will make sure I tell the players what that explanation is so that they understand the ruling.

As for Athletics vs. Acrobatics, I think this is one of the areas where those two skills overlap and I could certainly see an argument for either skill.

I agree, but wall-running seems pretty clearly treated as Acrobatics derived - utility powers that give climb speed all require Acrobatics training AFAICR; whereas jumping is Athletics. So I'd require both. It should be easy enough for either an untrained Epic PC, or a trained Heroic PC with good attribute mods. Of course you can run Heroic more Wuxia by using lower DCs; I tend to think of Heroic as Die Hard vs Epic's Crouching Tiger.

 

[Psikus]

Regarding high jumps, vertical reach, and other tricky rules, I wrote a visual guide to jumping rules for my blog. I have found it extremely helpful in our games, so perhaps it can be of some use

 

[Infiniti2000]

While you may need to be in an adjacent square to attack someone, the rules specifically refer to Reaching Something.

That's my point, though. In the OP, it seems like the players just want to reach something, because that's easier, but I think clearly from a rules perspective the PC wants to attack (Specifically, Grab), and therefore any rules applying to grabbing or attacking cannot be violated.

Thus, the PC must end up in an adjacent square to be able to perform the action as requested in the OP. Of course, this is arguable, since being in a square is not well-defined when you're talking about vertically.

If the creature hovering were instead a PC, how much would you wager that the player would say something like, "I'm hovering at the top of my voxel!"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

where exactly is it unrealistic to go back 10 ft and then use those two steps to jump a little bit farther?