D&D 4E Question on the Superior NAD feats and the math of 4e

[The Halfling]

The math fix Expertise feats have been discussed to death, but for the life of me, I can't remember how much the Superior range of feats (Will, Reflexes, and Fortitude) figure into the math as "fixes".

Does anyone know, can point me to the right discussion?

Thanks.

 

[OnlineDM]

I'm sure it's discussed somewhere, but here's my top-of-the-head analysis:

Assume that the monster attack bonus vs. NADs is "right" at level 1.

Monster math has their attacks getting better by 1 at each level. Thus, by level 30 the monsters will have gained +29 to their attacks relative to level 1.

PC NADs will automatically go up at every other level thanks to the half-level bonus. That's +15 by 30th level.

PCs will get neck slot items to raise their NADs as they go. That's another +6 by 30th level, putting us at a total of +21.

All ability scores go up at level 11 and again at level 21, which will have the effect of raising NADs by 1, for a total of +22.

PCs can raise a pair of ability scores at levels 4, 8, 14, 18, 24 and 28. If they pick the same two abilities every time and they pick abilities that tie to different NADs, this is another +3 to two out of three NADs, for a total of +25 for those two and +22 for the weak NAD.

I can't think of anything else that will raise NADs (maybe some race or class features?), so now we look at the feats. Improved Defenses gives you +1/2/3 to all NADs by tier, so that puts you at a total of +28 at 30th level - darn close to the gain in monster accuracy. The weak NAD will still be weak.

If you go with the Superior options, which give a +2/3/4 bonus, then you'll hit +29 exactly for the two strong NADs. Bingo.

It does seem like monsters are going to have an easier time hitting one of the three defenses at epic level than they did at level 1.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, it's pretty noticeable. Like hitting the weak NAD on a 3-5 pretty much, so depending on the party and how the weak NAD is spread around...

 

[Riastlin]

Yeah OnlineDM has it about right. The "issue" as it were with the Superior feats though is that a) they require you to have a 15 or higher in one of the associated attributes and they provide an additional benefit on top of the bonus to defense. Having already acquired a 15, odds are that you may be a bit ahead ahead of the "lower" NAD curve and then the kicker is just gravy. May take on all of this is that the Great Fort/Ref/Will feats were the math fixes and the Superior versions were for making PCs even better.

They are certainly not the worst in terms of power creep, but it is definitely noticeable. The Superior Fort feat in particular is noticeable to me as a DM since it gives such a nice kicker to ongoing damage resistance. Typically I already had the amount of ongoing damage increasing per tier since PCs get more healing and saving throw options as they go up, but now I almost have to increase it more since "ongoing 10" at paragon just doesn't concern most of my PCs.

 

[The Halfling]

Thanks, everyone. This is very helpful.