Question on true strike and cleave ...

[Legildur]

I think Hypersmurf's example of the cleaving charging paladin is a good one for demonstrating what bonuses do not carry across to other attacks.

But he could have made it even more confusing by throwing in the Ride By Attack feat. Would the charge bonus still not apply on the Cleave?

 

[Felix]

Hyp:
As far as balance goes, I agree with you... they should/wouldn't stack. But by the RAW, they indeedy do. 3.5, that is.

Feliks:
Did I grab your name? Or did you originally want that spelling?

 

[Feliks]

Feliks:
Did I grab your name? Or did you originally want that spelling?

It is the spelling I was going for, original Russian spelling.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp:
As far as balance goes, I agree with you... they should/wouldn't stack. But by the RAW, they indeedy do. 3.5, that is.

By "stack" do you mean "apply"?

The 3E FAQ answer on True Strike and Cleave is still applicable, since neither have changed in 3.5. This tells us the sense in which "same bonus" is to be interpreted. It can't mean "total bonus", or True Strike would apply to the Cleave attack, and thus "same bonus" is a shorthand (and badly-written) form of "same base attack bonus", exclusive of conditional modifiers.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is the spelling I was going for, original Russian spelling.

Wouldn't that be in Cyrillic?

-Hyp.

 

[Feliks]

Wouldn't that be in Cyrillic?

-Hyp.

Probably. But that is how it was listed on Ellis island whilst standing under the Lady by its former owner.

Besides, if I went through the hassle of finding/downloading/learning/using Cyrillic to write it then no one but Russian natives would know what it said. Also I am not sure if the area we now know as Georgia used Cyrillic as they are an unusual lot to say the least.

 

[RithTheAwakener]

If I may include something here, which is just the way i see it.
Cleave is the same attack. You are slicing thru one guy straight into another, following the same flow. Based on game terms, i would say that TrueStrike would NOT carry over, due to it being the first attack that hits the guy, phasing the spell. BUT being invisible, the flatfootedness of the cleaved target should stay, since its the same attack carrying thru the first to the second, there being no time to react. Smite evil, flanking, higher ground bonuses, etc would follow in suit of TrueStrike. Of course I could be wrong.


Rith

 

[Hypersmurf]

Cleave is the same attack. You are slicing thru one guy straight into another, following the same flow.

Now explain how I can use my longspear to drop an orc ten feet to the north of me, and Cleave into his buddy ten feet to the south of me.

-Hyp.

 

[bensei]

The True Strike - Power Attack - Great Cleave Combo is interesting, but not overpowered IMHO.

When it comes to multiple attacks (at lvl 6+), a Fighter-only will do 4 regular attacks in two rounds (given there are enough foes), while the Fighter-Mage only get a single regular attack in two rounds.

Assuming that a Str 18+ Fighter drops about 2 to 5 foes per round (with Great Cleave), the Fighter-Mage would have to move into a position where 2 to 5 foes are standing immediately adjacent. But in this case the foes would have had at least one round to all attack the Fighter-Mage themselves.

Unless, of couse, he is invisible, which then would cost him another round and require him to be at least 3rd level. This maneuver, however, would be quite flavorful, IMHO.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I think Hypersmurf's example of the cleaving charging paladin is a good one for demonstrating what bonuses do not carry across to other attacks.

But he could have made it even more confusing by throwing in the Ride By Attack feat. Would the charge bonus still not apply on the Cleave?

And therein lies the true rub...

If you do house rule that true strike does not apply to the cleave attack - you open the floor for all kinds of game play questions...

What bonuses do carry over into cleave?
What about Guidance or Moment of Prescience?
If cleave is a 'second' melee attack, do I have to hit him with my weapon or handle it as a normal attack at the same bonus?

Etc.

Just an fyi I've dealt with powergamers galore, and have found that 95% of the time, the simpler answer is the just that - the simpler answer.

Allowing True Strike to carryover may seem overpowered (at least to me it does) but it solves all the questions that could arise very quickly.


The 3E FAQ states clearly, agreeing with the 3.5 SRD, that TS only applies to a single attack - multiple attacks in a round don't get the bonus.

But are they talking about multiple attacks in a round, requiring the full attack option, or are they defining Cleave as an extra attack in the round, in which case they open the question of 'do i have to hit 'em with my weapon or can I grapple?'


I've decided to pull TS out of my game I'm replacing it with a similar Divination spell, but it can only grant a +1 to +10 bonus, and you don't know if it'll even work. It'll last one round or until discharged.