Question on true strike and cleave ...

[RithTheAwakener]

Now explain how I can use my longspear to drop an orc ten feet to the north of me, and Cleave into his buddy ten feet to the south of me.

While I'm not trained in killing people with a spear, you might be. But I could come up with some creative ideas as to how it would work.Use your imagination.

 

[Justinian]

Guess I should check the Rules forum more often. As the DM in question, let me say that I actually had thought about this issue a little bit.

True Strike + Cleave: Doesn't bother me. As bensai said above, you're giving up a full attack action to use true strike, and getting a cleave with the bonus doesn't fully counteract that unless you can utilize Great Cleave. And if you're killing with one hit, probably the TS didn't make a whole lot of difference.

TS + Power Attack: See above. If you use PA, you could probably hit anyway without TS, and you're just adding extra damage at the expense of a full attack, which is kind of balanced.

I'm in favor of full bonuses carrying over to Cleave, with a couple exceptions.
a) Illegal bonuses such as higher ground on the first attack, but no higher ground on the second attack.
b) Inapplicable bonuses like Bane or flanking on the first attack but not on the second.

I don't think Cleave counts as one of the "multiple attacks" that you can't use TS with. I know some of you think that the TS bonus counts as illegal and/or inapplicable, but I don't think it is such a problem. From a flavor standpoint, it is worth it, and from a balance standpoint, I don't think it's that bad.

That being said, if you only fight once per day, the combo will seem devastating. I hope to avoid that, so proportionally, it won't dominate combat.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

...

True Strike + Cleave: Doesn't bother me. As bensai said above, you're giving up a full attack action to use true strike, and getting a cleave with the bonus doesn't fully counteract that unless you can utilize Great Cleave. And if you're killing with one hit, probably the TS didn't make a whole lot of difference.

...

Can you explain how using TS causes you to sacrifice a full attack action? (is it because it only works on one attack out of the full attack action?)

 

[Justinian]

You have to cast it the round before using it.
Usually, fighters would full attack that round.

Also, though I hadn't considered this as a balance factor before, when you use TS + PA, the iterative attacks really get hurt on the attack rolls.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If cleave is a 'second' melee attack, do I have to hit him with my weapon or handle it as a normal attack at the same bonus?

Cleave specifically says it's with the same weapon.

The 3E FAQ states clearly, agreeing with the 3.5 SRD, that TS only applies to a single attack - multiple attacks in a round don't get the bonus.

But are they talking about multiple attacks in a round, requiring the full attack option, or are they defining Cleave as an extra attack in the round?

The question asked about "extra attacks from the Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind attack feats".

The answer said "Your bonus from true strike applies only to the first attack you make, no matter how you managed to get multiple attacks."

The question wasn't asking about iterative attacks in a full attack action. It asked about Cleave.

-Hyp.

 

[Feliks]

/me:/ looks through previous post for damaging material/me/



What he means folks is that by grinding us to a pulp through multiple encounters true strike will be negated soon and then back to normal for the rest of the day.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Actually, it was two questions, not one

And the phrase 'no matter how' contradicts at least one magic item I know of, not to mention contradicting cleave.

As other feats maintained 'highest bab', and this feat says 'same bonus' - I tend to disagree. Especially since agreeing would open the door to many more equal questions (what bonuses are legal for cleave?) to which there is no easy response beyond adjudicating on the spot.


Enough discussion though - the rules are a) unclear or b) contradictory, take your pick, as witnessed by the length of this conversation Therefore, I withdraw from the debate and will let everon decide for themselves which way they will rule.

But if you ever play in my game - rest assured - TS will not exist

 

[Hypersmurf]

And the phrase 'no matter how' contradicts at least one magic item I know of, not to mention contradicting cleave.

Which magic item is that?

As other feats maintained 'highest bab', and this feat says 'same bonus' - I tend to disagree. Especially since agreeing would open the door to many more equal questions (what bonuses are legal for cleave?) to which there is no easy response beyond adjudicating on the spot.

I don't agree that there's no easy response.

If I have a BAB of +6, then I can make two attacks. Let's say I swing at the hobgoblin, and then at his Dire Wolf buddy.

The first swing, I take a BAB figure of +6, and add any bonuses that apply. Strength, enhancement, flanking, Bless spells, Bardic music, higher ground, Bane weapon, whatever.

The second swing, I take a BAB figure of +1, and add any bonuses that apply.

If we throw Cleave into the mix, then I calculate my Cleave attack exactly as I calculate any other attack - take a BAB figure, and add any applicable modifiers. And the BAB figure for a Cleave is the same as the attack that dropped the original opponent. Unlike many other feats, when the BAB figure you use is always your highest.

There's nothing complicated or arbitrary about it.

-Hyp.