Question regarding Bardic Knowledge

[Greenfield]

Bardic Knowledge seems vague, poorly defined.

For example, in the SRD it says that a "A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function.", but doesn't say what roll qualifies as "Success".

I've seen it used as a super-powered version of "Knowledge - All", and I'm pretty sure that isn't what it was intended to be.

Is there a more definitive source for this, someplace where it lays down better and/or more complete guidelines for this class ability?

 

[Ranes]

The PHB doesn't go much further than the SRD. All I can add is that, I seem to remember reading adventures in Dungeon where bardic knowledge rolls would often substitute for a specific knowledge skill check with a DC 2 higher than the relevant knowledge skill check. That's almost exclusively the basis for the way I determine the DC of a bardic knowledge roll. I can't give you a specific example of this offhand, however.

 

[Greenfield]

I might be tempted to allow something like that for skills like "Knowledge - Local", or if there was a "Knowledge - Legends". I'd probably bump the check by 5 instead of 2.

I'd also like to see a rule for getting it wrong. I've always presumed that Bardic Knowledge is a combination of picking up gossip and a knowledge of tales and legends, ballads and such. The sort of thing that might grow or be altered in the retelling, for dramatic emphasis, of course.

I mean, consider the Internet, that great misinformation super highway. How many people do you know who *know* things that flatly aren't true. But they heard it from <insert source>, and they wouldn't steer me wrong.

I think of Bardic Knowledge that way.

Ill defined as it is, it's an incredible class ability.

 

[lordxaviar]

another thing/ability for the Dm to keep in check

 

[Ranes]

I might be tempted to allow something like that for skills like "Knowledge - Local", or if there was a "Knowledge - Legends". I'd probably bump the check by 5 instead of 2.

Sounds good to me.

I'd also like to see a rule for getting it wrong. I've always presumed that Bardic Knowledge is a combination of picking up gossip and a knowledge of tales and legends, ballads and such. The sort of thing that might grow or be altered in the retelling, for dramatic emphasis, of course.

Surely you don't need a rule here. If the player fails to roll the DC, you just tell him a tall one. Or invoke the penalties-for-failure mechanic. If he fails by more than 5, you could tell him something that would get him into serious trouble, were he to act on the basis of what he thinks he knows.

I mean, consider the Internet, that great misinformation super highway. How many people do you know who *know* things that flatly aren't true?

Sometimes, I am one of those people.

 

[Herzog]

Bardic Knowledge is an incredible powerfull ability, but it is NOT a substitute for 'normal' knowledge checks.
normal knowledge skills can grant you information about creatures (immunities, attack forms, vulnerabilities) while bardic knowledge can grant you at the most it's probable habitat and whether it mates for life (might be important if you discover a nest containing one, whether there might me a second one arriving shortly....)

As stated by Greenfield, generic information as could be obtained from legends, gossip, etc.

As to magic items: BK could be used to find out how a specific magic item works by combining legends: 'The former owner of this artifact used to hold it high into the air at the centre of the battlefield and shout something. Then all his enemies would flee. There's also a rumour he was a secret follower of Thanathos'.
Activation of the artifiact could, in this case, be simply to hold it above your head and Shout 'Thanathos', or even more specific: 'Thanathos, let my enemies flee from me!'

Of course, a simple Identify spell could give you the same info.

 

[Ranes]

Bardic Knowledge is an incredible powerfull ability, but it is NOT a substitute for 'normal' knowledge checks.
normal knowledge skills can grant you information about creatures (immunities, attack forms, vulnerabilities) while bardic knowledge can grant you at the most it's probable habitat and whether it mates for life (might be important if you discover a nest containing one, whether there might me a second one arriving shortly....)

Why can't legends or gossip be the source of information on abilities, immunities, attack forms or vulnerabilities?

 

[Dandu]

Tis legend that trolls hate fire and forum moderators.

 

[Greenfield]

I agree that using Bardic Knowledge as "Knowledge: Anything" is probably a bad idea. But, as written, that's pretty much what it is. Which is why I was hoping that someone knew of something in the RAW to clarify it.

Oh, and for the record: Forum trolls love flames.

 

[AeroDm]

BK as Knowledge: All is pretty much how we end up playing it but I am not really opposed for two reasons. First, the kind of stuff knowledges typically return is often flavor that can't really be provided any other way. I'm happy if a character is able to act as a vehicle for exposition. Second, BK is lower than a knowledge skill so it doesn't replace as much as supplement the role of knowledges. If you *need* a knowledge check, relying on BK is likely to result in a failure. Knowledges remain important.