Question: Stacking Flaming vs. Epic Flaming?

[Dthamilaye]

Hello.

First of all, lets think that the different elemental weapon enchantments can be stacked (nothing prevents this in the DMG). Ie, a weapon can have flaming, frost, acidic and shock -abilities (+4 together).

Can a weapon be enchanted with several same enchantments? Like 3 flaming -enchantments for 3d6 fire damage? One official place where such a weapon is made by the 3.5 WoTC is King Snurre -miniature's stat card (the rpg-infoside).

If several same elemental enchantments can be added, how does this relate to the Epic level handbook flaming(burst)-equivalent enchantment?
The ELH enchantment gives 3d6 fire damage, or 6d6 if critical, and it is +6 equivalent.

Now, if same enchantments can be stacked before epic level, 3 times flaming burst would give 3d6 damage and 3d6+3d10 with critical for +6 equivalent?


Is the ELH enchantment just not relevant anymore, being underpowered, or is the King Snurre card wrong, or what?

What do you think about the idea that if several flaming(burst) enchantments are put to the same weapon, they are checked separately vs any fire resistance. Ie, if a guy has 5 flaming enchantments in a sword and hits a monster with FR 10, no fire damage goes through, as each d6 is checked separately vs the 10 resistance?

Any rules-laywer who could say how the RAW goes with this?

Thank you very much.

 

[daTim]

Your example of the Fire Giant King is incorrect, all Fire Giants do 2d6 fire damage automatically. He is simply wielding a flaming sword, so it adds up to 3d6 fire damage.

In our campaign we allow the same elements to stack, mostly so we dont have what we feel would be stupid flaming/frosting weapons.

 

[Knight Otu]

I do not think it is written expressively thata particular ability can only be added once, but there are a few rules bits that can help:
One, the stacking rules might help:

Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Different Bonus Names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.
Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Your example would seem to fall into the "same effect more than once in differing strengths" group. So there might be a minor benefit (depending on whether you check with each hit, or just the general strength of the ability), but it would not be +1d6 points of fire damage.

Second, if it would apply to weapon abilities, it would also apply to armor abilities - and that is clearly not the case, if you look at , for example, the energy resistance abilities. Resistance 10 costs 18,000 gp, but resistance 20 costs 42,000 gp, not 36,000 gp. And Resistance 30 costs 66,000 gp, not 54,000 gp.

 

[Gort]

Personally, as a GM, I would far prefer people stacking flaming 3 times than stacking frost, flaming and acid onto a weapon.

 

[shilsen]

Personally, as a GM, I would far prefer people stacking flaming 3 times than stacking frost, flaming and acid onto a weapon.

It's cool how different our approaches are. As a DM, I'd much rather see the opposite, so that I could describe the PC's sword with flickering flames spiralling around it, some of which glow red (fire), blue (cold) and green (acid). Much cooler and more fantastic for me than the hot, hotter, and even hotter flames of the sword with the stacked flaming enchantment.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It's cool how different our approaches are. As a DM, I'd much rather see the opposite, so that I could describe the PC's sword with flickering flames spiralling around it, some of which glow red (fire), blue (cold) and green (acid). Much cooler and more fantastic for me than the hot, hotter, and even hotter flames of the sword with the stacked flaming enchantment.

While I agree with this completely and have always ruled it this way, it was pointed out in another thread here (I forget when ), that allowing stacking elemental damage enchantments is better than individual ones. If you come up against a fiendish creature with a +1 flaming, acidic longsword, his resistances are 99% of the time going to completely absorb all the energy damage. But if you have a flaming, flaming longsword, half the damage will be absorbed, and the other half will get through.

At higher levels, where a lot of the outsiders have a slew of resistance 5's, allowing your PCs to stack the same effect is much more useful than individual elements.

 

[Dthamilaye]

Thank you for the comments.

Yes, I think stacking the same effect is more powerful than stacking different ones, except if each one deals it's damage separately. That would be kind of dumb way to handle it, though. Better to either not have a possibility to stack similar effects at all, or let them stack.

If they can be stacked, there still is the situation with the epic ability that I mentioned above. Are they too wimpy for the +6 enchantment? What would you do to those, if you let the normal burst enchantments to stack their damage? Three bursts of the same kind is much better than the +6 ability from Epic Handbook.

BTW, firegiants do not automatically do fire damage according to SRD. They just prefer flaming weapons. (Although, if they throw rocks, they might do 2d6 fire as they are pre-warmed in lava or similar)