Question to WOTC

[Edena_of_Neith]

This is a legal question.

Many, many years ago, a DM said to me 'you can have it, if I can see it.'
I decided to start typing spells down out of sourcebooks, so I could see them (and show him these spells, so 'I could use them, because he could see them' )

This was a list for my own use *only*. Obviously, giving anyone a copy was a violation of copyright, and I never did this.
I also never got the chance to use this list. My DM quit, nobody else was interested ... but I continued to build the list as a hobby, for my own amusement.
I called this list the Everlist (because it kept growing, ever growing, and I knew I would never complete it.)

I ended up copying down (with plenty of spelling mistakes) most of the spells from 1st and 2nd edition. In many cases, I copied the spells multiple times, as multiple versions of the spell existed.
And I never did complete the list.
Up until now, I *never* contemplated sharing the list. Because with Copyright, you assume you *can't do it*, unless they specifically tell you that you *can*.

Now, though, it seems that everything 1E and 2E is ... what do you call it? ... open content? Or, available to the public? You can put it up, online?

*** Would it be ok, for me to copy and paste some (or even any at all) of the spells of the Everlist to ENWorld, then? Is this legal? ***

I wanted to share my work with folks here. I just wanted to share my efforts, and start a discussion about these old spells (which nobody seems to use anymore.)

*** But I will not do it unless it is *legal.* And someone in authority tells me that it is legal. I, obviously, do not wish to break any laws. ***

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[Nikosandros]

None of the material from early editions of D&D is open.

What has happened is that some people have built clones of some of those earlier editions using many of the terms released under the OGL and the fact that the rules themselves of a game can't be copyrighted.

This is of course a gross simplification and, for example, OSRIC was developed following the advice of one or more IP lawyers, IIRC.

In any event, I think that it's highly unlikely that WotC would comment on the legality of something on a message board...

 

[the Jester]

Hey Edena, might I suggest that if you have a question for WotC you might get more of a response if you email it to them or post it on their messageboards?

I mean, this isn't their house, if that makes sense to you.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ah, ok. Sorry.
I'll keep it to myself (the Everlist, that is.)
I've never copied the Everlist, never shared it with anyone, because it is not allowed. Not for profit, not for friendship, not for the heck of it, not for any reason whatsoever.

It would have been fun to share some of these spells. I think a few people here might have wanted to talk about them, reminiscence (sp?) about them.

But Copyright Law, is Copyright Law. *You can use it for yourself, only. You cannot share it with anyone.* Here is terminology I understand very well.

 

[S'mon]

But Copyright Law, is Copyright Law. *You can use it for yourself, only. You cannot share it with anyone.* Here is terminology I understand very well.

Have you heard of Fair Use?

OSRIC & co use the OGL - which lets you reproduce material from the SRD. Plus you can reproduce game mechanics, as these are not copyrightable.

As an IP lawyer myself, I agree OSRIC does show the hand of an IP lawyer on it, it's very very carefully done. Not all the retro-clones are as careful, but any breaches of copyright in them look trivial.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Up until now, I *never* contemplated sharing the list. Because with Copyright, you assume you *can't do it*, unless they specifically tell you that you *can*.

This attitude is not productive for yourself or for people in general. What copyright does specifically bar is easy to discover in most cases and there are many fair uses of copyright material. Creating the precedent of asking permission for new uses of said material is not good for the exchange of information as it detracts from potential fair uses.

The purpose of copyright is to reward people for the creation of creative works because there is a social need and desire for such creation. If copyright becomes a hindrance to the use of such works, then it is acting against its purpose.

Copyright law forces people and markets to behave far differently than they otherwise would and introduces many inefficiencies into the market, but it is allowed as it is a means to promote the generation of creative works. Do not allow it to become more of a hindrance than it needs to be.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I know that there is such a thing as Fair Use. But I know nothing about it, other than it is often fought over, by people who understand the law (whereas I do not understand the law.)

I would love to share the Everlist. I've wanted to for many years (actually, for more than a decade.) I didn't want it to collect dust forever, to be metaphorical.

But whether Copyright Law is reasonable or not reasonable, it *is* Copyright Law, and I must obey it. And I will.

I'll say this, though:

A vast part of *all* that was written concerning Dungeons and Dragons, in those older editions - a vast part of *all* the writing period, in terms of page count and bulk content, was devoted to spell descriptions. Spells were a vast part of the game.
And some of what was written was really creative and neat. Some of it, was astonishingly game-breaking, by the present definitions. Some of it, was simply humorous, and some was extremely nasty in a nice way. Just a lot of cool stuff.

One day, when they declare all this older stuff to be Open Content, and they give their permission, I'll be able to dust off the Everlist and post it.
Until then, all I can say is 1E and 2E had truly great concepts, both in spells and otherwise, but certainly in spells. A discussion of those spells, if ever we can have one, would be a *really neat* discussion!

Edena_of_Neith

EDIT:

I take the exact inverse of my gaming thinking, in Real Life.

That is, in a game, in the fantasy setting, my attitude is You Can Do It, Unless the Rules Specifically State You Can't Do It. This is well known; my laisse faire attitude is well known.
But in Real Life, when it comes to Copyright (or anything else related to the law) I always go with the inverse: You Can't Do It Unless the Rules Specifically Say You Can Do It.

This approach has made for great games ... and for keeping out of trouble in Real Life.

(muses)

 

[ExploderWizard]

Remember that you can reproduce mechanical effects and duplicate spell descriptions in function. Its the IP part of spells that have to be edited out. Any spell incorporating the name of a character owned by WOTC will have to be renamed, so no Tenser,Bigby, ect. S&W, LL, and OSRIC have all done fair use translations of old edition spells, take a look at those to see what was done.

 

[qstor]

How do people like Rob Kuntz publish modules then, with AD&D stats in them?


Mike

 

[Kaladhan]

Is it legal? Probably not. Reproducing hundred of pages of copyrighted material probably won't qualify as fair use.

Can you do it? Worst case scenario, Wizards sends you a cease and desist letter. In which case, you should take it off.

So why not share it?