Questions about Sacred Exorcist PrC

[Al'Kelhar]

I am DMing a campaign in which possession by evil outsiders, using the rules on possession in the Book of Vile Darkness, will be relatively common. This had led me to thinking about the Sacred Exorcist prestige class as one which might be available to PCs in the campaign.

However, I have two questions about the Sacred Exorcist which I'd like the expert views of the En Worlders on.

First, the PrC seems a trifle unbalanced. Although a cleric would have to be 9th level before satisfying the requirements (see also the second question, below), the PrC grants +1 spell casting level per level and cumulative turn undead powers, as well as a number of PrC-specific additional abilities. In essence, a cleric who takes this PrC loses nothing and gains alot. Thus, for example, a Clr9/Sacred Exorcist 5 is more powerful than a Clr14, because she has the attack roll, hit points, saving throws, spell casting, and turn undead abilities of the Clr14, but has a few other nifty things too. Do you think the PrC should be toned down, and if so, how?

Second - and this might be why the PrC seems a little unbalanced - the prerequsites for the Sacred Exorcist requires 7 ranks in Knowledge (the planes). Knowledge (the planes) is a cross-class skill for a cleric. So, the cleric has to multiclass as a bard or wizard (or, IMC, a druid), cannot take the prestige class until she is at least an 11th level cleric, or alternatively, this requirement is an error (either 7 ranks is wrong, or the drafter of the PrC thought Knowledge (the planes) was a cleric class skill). As a solution to this problem (and as a matter of common sense), I'm thinking of making Knowledge (the planes) a class skill for clerics.

I am also thinking of making some other amendments to the PrC, as follows:

Chosen Foe: If the character takes evil outsiders as her chosen foe, the chosen foe bonus is also added to the DC for an outsider's Hide check against detection spells cast by the character when the outsider is attempting to mask its presence from the character.

Turning: If the character takes evil outsiders as her chosen foe, the character ceases to increase her ability to turn undead. However, she gains the ability to turn evil outsiders, much as a Knight of the Chalice can turn demons, i.e. use character level to determine maximum HD of outsider turned, use class level to determine number of HD turned.

Bonus Feats: The character gains Extra Turning as a bonus feat at 3rd (class) level. This feat applies either to turning undead, or turning evil outsiders, depending on the character's chosen foe.

At 6th, and again at 9th, (class) level, the character gains a bonus feat which is either Extra Turning or one of the Divine feats from Defenders of the Faith. In the latter case, if the character has chosen evil outsiders as her chosen foe, and has taken a Divine feat which affects undead, it would instead affect evil outsiders.

Any thoughts or comments?

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Hypersmurf]

There are also the Cosmopolitan and Educated feats in the FRCS that would allow a cleric to take Knowledge (the Planes) as a class skill.

And there are several clerical PrCs that grant full spellcasting and turning progression, plus. I think it's a Bad Thing, and I did some serious gutting of the Templar before I'd allow a player to use it.

-Hyp.

 

[Olive]

as far as the Knoweldge (planes) goes, i'd consider house ruling the knowledge planes situation, assuming of course the gods live on other planes. Otherwise, the cosmopolitan feat from PRCS allows a character to take a non-exclusive skill as a class skill.

 

[magnas_veritas]

I am DMing a campaign in which possession by evil outsiders, using the rules on possession in the Book of Vile Darkness, will be relatively common. This had led me to thinking about the Sacred Exorcist prestige class as one which might be available to PCs in the campaign.

Especially since there's that nifty Consecrated Presence power at 5th level, so the vile damage is no longer quite as irritating.

In essence, a cleric who takes this PrC loses nothing and gains alot. Thus, for example, a Clr9/Sacred Exorcist 5 is more powerful than a Clr14, because she has the attack roll, hit points, saving throws, spell casting, and turn undead abilities of the Clr14, but has a few other nifty things too. Do you think the PrC should be toned down, and if so, how?

Not particularly, but I can see how one might think that. The PC's having to either eat one of his precious feats, multi-class for a few levels*, or buy K (Planes) cross-class for a few levels...when the cleric gets very few skill points anyway. Also, remember that Special requirement, which means the player needs to roleplay appropriately. I'd say those balance out the specialized bonuses the Excorcist gets.

* - My character who's heading into Excorcist ducked into Witch Hunter from OA for three levels; it fit thematically, gave good base attack, better skills, and he picked up Divine Grace and Aura of Courage.

As a solution to this problem (and as a matter of common sense), I'm thinking of making Knowledge (the planes) a class skill for clerics.

That's possible, and one that's fairly player-friendly. It does depend on your view of clerics, though; K (Religion) gives the party line, and they may not want to learn anything else. Demon? Enemy. Eladrin? Needs disciplining. Any plane that's not connected to (insert deity's name here)? Bunch of useless heathen.

I am also thinking of making some other amendments to the PrC, as follows:

Turning: If the character takes evil outsiders as her chosen foe, the character ceases to increase her ability to turn undead. However, she gains the ability to turn evil outsiders, much as a Knight of the Chalice can turn demons, i.e. use character level to determine maximum HD of outsider turned, use class level to determine number of HD turned.

That's workable. As it stands, there's no reason not to choose Evil Outsider as the chosen foe...you get that bonus to spell penetration, after all, and outsiders have SR more often than undead.

Brad

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Re: Questions about Sacred Exorcist PrC

Sure there's a reason not to choose undead as the chosen foe: because you want to have the bonusses against undead. The advantages may be slightly better against evil outsiders than against undead but that doesn't mean everyone will do that. Quite a lot of high CR undead creatures actually do have SR so it is useful. Whether it is more useful than chosen foe: evil outsider will depend on which is more common in the campaign. . . something which probably depends upon the exorcist's choice of foe (after all, an exorcist who hunts down undead is likely to find more undead than evil outsiders and vise versa).

For an analogous situation, favored enemy: human is generally the most advantageous choice for rangers but there are still good reasons to choose favored enemy: dragons, favored enemy: Demons, and favored enemy: elves.

That's workable. As it stands, there's no reason not to choose Evil Outsider as the chosen foe...you get that bonus to spell penetration, after all, and outsiders have SR more often than undead.

Brad

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A few things about the balance. First, you're incorrect that the cleric doesn't give up anything.

WRT balance a best case scenario for a cleric taking the class is a cleric with the knowledge domain who can take the class at level 7. Assuming 32 point buy or similar stats, the cleric is unlikely to have more than a 13 int. The 17 skill points represented by 10 ranks of knowledge religion and 7 ranks of knowledge: planes represent somewhere from half (human cleric with 12-13 int) to all but 3 (non-human cleric with a 10 int) of the characters skill points by that point. That is a huge opportunity cost.

The character loses their strong fortitude save.

Also, any cleric who takes all ten levels of the class starting as soon as possible will also lose BAB and reflex save due to the way the progression works. (It's not much but it is something).

Clr 8 BAB +6 Ref +2
Clr 7/Ex 1 BAB +5 Ref +2

Clr 9 BAB +6 Ref +3
Clr 7/Ex 2 BAB +6 Ref +2

Clr 20 BAB +15 Ref +6
Clr 10/Ex 10 BAB +14 Ref +6

All told, I think the heft prerequisites and loss of fort save are sufficient to balance the p-class for clerics.

For wizards it's another story. . . but even there, I don't think it's too unbalanced--minor changes (reduced HD for instance) would make it balanced.

First, the PrC seems a trifle unbalanced. Although a cleric would have to be 9th level before satisfying the requirements (see also the second question, below), the PrC grants +1 spell casting level per level and cumulative turn undead powers, as well as a number of PrC-specific additional abilities. In essence, a cleric who takes this PrC loses nothing and gains alot. Thus, for example, a Clr9/Sacred Exorcist 5 is more powerful than a Clr14, because she has the attack roll, hit points, saving throws, spell casting, and turn undead abilities of the Clr14, but has a few other nifty things too. Do you think the PrC should be toned down, and if so, how?