Questions about Scrolls

[Cheiromancer]

A couple of questions I was wondering about:

1. By the Rules As Written (RAW), can a spell found on a scroll be modified by a metamagic feat?

The Scribe Scroll feat says "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know." The description of metamagic feats seems to say that you can cast an empowered fireball or prepare an empowered fireball, but it doesn't ever come out and say that you know an empowered fireball.

2. If the answer to 1 is "yes", who can use a scroll with a metamagicked spell?

The SRD description of scrolls says that to use a scroll, the "the user must have the spell on his or her class list." My reasoning is that only base spells (unmodified by metamagic) appear on class lists, and adding metamagic feats doesn't add spells to your class list. Which means only rogues could use scrolls with metagmagicked spells, since they bypass this rule. On the other hand, the effect of the rule about class lists might be to distinguish bard-only spells from wizard/sorcerer-only spells, not to distinguish base spells from metamagicked spells.

3. By the RAW, can a wizard learn spells from a scroll? How about a sorcerer?

I found in the SRD that "At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own"- i.e. not from scrolls, but I might have missed a reference to learning spells from scrolls somewhere else.

In comparison, I found that when a sorcerer gains spells "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." So if a sorcerer is eligible to learn a new spell, can he study a scroll?

These questions are all a lead up to my final question:

4. Can a wizard learn a metamagicked spell from a scroll?

 

[Goolpsy]

1) Im not quite sure, probably no, though i would make it work

2) As metamagic scrolls isn't mentioned anywhere i know, I'd suggest you to houserule it, Either make it work, or require the wizard to have the Maximize spell feat to understand the twisted version of the fireball in the scroll he is holding (of course modified by maximize)

3) Yes a wizard can learn a spell from a scroll, By writing it into his book, it disappears from the scroll as if used. (i know its mentioned somewhere in 3.0 DMG, but dont have the 3.5) Can't remember the pages though.
Sorcerors can't, they cant remember them, and dont have them scribed down anywhere.

4) If you allow metamagic on scroll, then the wizard should be able to learn the spell (without the metamagic on it thought) still not mentioned anywhere i'dd suggest add'ing +5 or +10 on the Spellcraft used when "learning/reading" it

 

[werk]

1. By the Rules As Written (RAW), can a spell found on a scroll be modified by a metamagic feat?

This one is a little confusing to me. You can scribe a metamagic'd spell to a scroll, but I don't know a way to cast a regular spell from a scroll and get a metamagic effect (like incantrix).

2. If the answer to 1 is "yes", who can use a scroll with a metamagicked spell?

the "the user must have the spell on his or her class list." Refer to the base spell.

3. By the RAW, can a wizard learn spells from a scroll? How about a sorcerer?

Yes, wizards can scribe spells to their spellbook from a scroll. The problem is the meta-magic. So while a 5th level wizard could scribe a regular 3rd level fireball scroll, an empowered fireball would be effectively 5th level instead of 3rd. I wouldn't allow them to learn the spell as empowered, just the base spell, so you can't trade spells with your buddy and get free metamagic feats.

4. Can a wizard learn a metamagicked spell from a scroll?

I'd say yes, but just the base spell.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I think the information you're looking for can be found here:

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

In short:

1. Yes, you can make a scroll of Empowered Fireball.

2. Anyone who can cast the Fireball spell has the ability to cast it Empowered off of a scroll. It's still a Fireball spell. [EDIT: Note that, generally speaking, metamagic feats increase the spell's level, and thereby increase the Caster Level of the scroll. Thus, while a 5th-level wizard could pick up and cast a "base" Fireball scroll without problem (CL5, 5d6 damage), he'd need to make a caster level check to cast a "base" Empowered Fireball (CL 9, 9d6*1.5 damage).]

3. Wizards can copy spells from scrolls into their spellbooks.

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook.

The rules text on the sorceror gaining spells is meant to allow DMs to include new spells. For instance, the only place in your world that anyone can find Abenezer's Inflation is in Abenezer's spellbook, which was, unfortunately, buried a million years ago. However, if your sorceror has a chance to study Abenezer's work, he can elect to make A's Inflation one of his spells known the next time he's got an open slot.

4. No. You may learn the base spell, but unless you know the metamagic feat yourself, you can't metamagic a spell.

In other words, when reading the spell scroll, the wizard will see, "Huh. Here's the formula for a potent Fireball, but it's got all this weird stuff mixed throughout it. I think it'll intensify the flames so evoked, but I'm not really sure how."

 

[Goolpsy]

Exactly the right way to put things

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think the information you're looking for can be found here:

1. Yes, you can make a scroll of Empowered Fireball.
2. Anyone who can cast the Fireball spell has the ability to cast it Empowered off of a scroll. It's still a Fireball spell.
3. Wizards can copy spells from scrolls into their spellbooks.
4. No. You may learn the base spell, but unless you know the metamagic feat yourself, you can't metamagic a spell.

In other words, when reading the spell scroll, the wizard will see, "Huh. Here's the formula for a potent Fireball, but it's got all this weird stuff mixed throughout it. I think it'll intensify the flames so evoked, but I'm not really sure how."

Ok. I see from the section of SRD you quoted that you can make a scroll of Empowered Fireball. I don't see the argument that proves that a wizard can use it. "Empowered Fireball" is not on the wizard spell list. If it does count as being on the wizard spell list, then why can't the wizard learn it? I.e. he should be able to write "Empowered Fireball" in his spell book, and use it to prepare an empowered fireball. He wouldn't be able to prepare a normal fireball, or empower anything else. But if he learns the formula, including the "weird stuff" he should be able to replicate the scroll at his convenience. (Assume he's at least 9th level.)

So two questions: how do you know that a wizard can use a scroll of empowered fireball if "empowered fireball" is not on the wizard spell list? If it counts as being on his list, why can't he learn it as a spell in its own right?

I don't really think you are wrong; I just don't see how the RAW prevent a wizard from learning a metamagicked spell as if it were Abenezer's Inflation.

 

[dcollins]

"Empowered Fireball" is not a spell unto itself. It's not on the wizard spell list. It's a spell with a modifier attached. Empowered scrolls are possible, and be cast without the feat in question, because the rules say that they can be. From the SRD, under "Feats":

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

 

[dedicated]

It Doesn't Count As Being On The Wizard's Spell List
The RAW says that the Wizard must have the BASE spell on their base spell list (at least in the DMG, which overrides the player's handbook)

Although a spellcaster could independantly research a metamagiced spell if he/she renamed it

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ok. Thanks guys. I'm a different country from my DnD books and I appreciate your help!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Glad to help!