Questions about thri-kreens...

[Amazing Mumford]

I have 2 perplexing questions concerning thri-kreens. One of my PC's was making a thri-kreen Psychic Warrior from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and noticed a few discrepancies between the thri-kreen presented in the Races chapter and in the Monsters chapter.

1) What are the thri-kreen's actual racial psi-like abilities? According the the Races chapter, they get chameleon, know direction, psionic displacement and metaphysical claw; whereas the thri-kreen in the Monsters chapter has chameleon, know direction and location, greater concealing amorpha, and metaphysical claw. Which one is correct?

2) Also we are confused about extra attacks. In the Races chapter, it states a thri-kreen can "...make either a bite or claw attack as a secondary attack" when a thri-kreen is attacking with a weapon. Now in the statistics for the thri-kreen in the Monsters chapter, it states "or longspear +3 melee and 2 claws -2 melee and bite -2 melee" So if a thri-kreen attacks with a weapon in 2 hands, leaving 2 more hands and a bite free; does he get only 1 secondary attack with either a claw or a bite or does he get remaining attacks with all the natural weapons he has left? I assume the stat block is wrong in the Monsters chapter... How exactly, including penalties; would the attack sequence go with a thri-kreen Psychic Warrior 1, Base Attack Bonus +2, Str 16, Dex 22, Multiattack feat, Weapon Finesse feat, fighting with a gythka +1/+1 ? Would the off-hand attack with the gythka, treated as a light weapon, be eligible for the weapon finesse feat?

 

[Staffan]

1) What are the thri-kreen's actual racial psi-like abilities? According the the Races chapter, they get chameleon, know direction, psionic displacement and metaphysical claw; whereas the thri-kreen in the Monsters chapter has chameleon, know direction and location, greater concealing amorpha, and metaphysical claw. Which one is correct?

Errata says the monsters chapter is correct. Especially so since there is no psionic displacement power (though greater concealing amorpha works pretty similarly to displacement).

2) Also we are confused about extra attacks.

I'd use the monster rules, since they are more in phase with how extra attacks work for every other creature.

Would the off-hand attack with the gythka, treated as a light weapon, be eligible for the weapon finesse feat?

FAQ says yes.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

2) Also we are confused about extra attacks. In the Races chapter, it states a thri-kreen can "...make either a bite or claw attack as a secondary attack" when a thri-kreen is attacking with a weapon. Now in the statistics for the thri-kreen in the Monsters chapter, it states "or longspear +3 melee and 2 claws -2 melee and bite -2 melee" So if a thri-kreen attacks with a weapon in 2 hands, leaving 2 more hands and a bite free; does he get only 1 secondary attack with either a claw or a bite or does he get remaining attacks with all the natural weapons he has left? I assume the stat block is wrong in the Monsters chapter... How exactly, including penalties; would the attack sequence go with a thri-kreen Psychic Warrior 1, Base Attack Bonus +2, Str 16, Dex 22, Multiattack feat, Weapon Finesse feat, fighting with a gythka +1/+1 ? Would the off-hand attack with the gythka, treated as a light weapon, be eligible for the weapon finesse feat?

In Thri-Kreen of Athas, a thri-kreen could use a gythka and a bite. Unfortunately, a lot of the text got left out of the XPH. Actually, none of the TKoA text made it in.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

Staffan-- thanks for your input, I appreciate your help-- I do have 2 more quick questions for you-- can you give me a couple examples of stats of other creatures with extra attacks and weapons? Are there any other 3.5 Thri-Kreen NPC stats published out there? And how exactly would that attack sequence go, anyway?

(Psi)Severedhead-- I'm not sure exactly what Thri-Kreen of Athas is, is that an old Darksun book? The campaign we are in is strictly 3.5 Forgotten Realms, I don't think the stats from Darksun would be relevant... thank-you though.

 

[Spatula]

Normally a thri-kreen gets 4 claw attacks at full BAB and 1 bite attack at -5 full BAB (-2 with Multiattack). If it's using weapons it can still make claw attacks with any free hands, although as secondary attacks (i.e. -5 or -2 to hit).

 

[Staffan]

Staffan-- thanks for your input, I appreciate your help-- I do have 2 more quick questions for you-- can you give me a couple examples of stats of other creatures with extra attacks and weapons?

First I can find in the SRD is the Cornugon:
Spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) and bite +22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)

Are there any other 3.5 Thri-Kreen NPC stats published out there?

I doubt it. It's from a supplement, so it won't get used in adventures or other sourcebooks much.

And how exactly would that attack sequence go, anyway?

You mean the "thri-kreen Psychic Warrior 1, Base Attack Bonus +2, Str 16, Dex 22, Multiattack feat, Weapon Finesse feat, fighting with a gythka +1/+1"? I'm assuming Multiweapon fighting included as well, because using a double weapon without it (or two-weapon fighting) is just stupid.

OK, let's see...
BAB +2. With Str, +5. With Dex, +8.
It would go something like this: Gythka +4 (1d10+4) and gythka (offhand) +7 (1d10+2) and 2 claws +6 (1d4+1) and bite +6 (1d4+1 plus poison).

How I got the attack bonuses:
Gythka +4: BAB +2, Str +3, Enhancement +1, two-weapon fighting -2
Gythka +7: BAB +2, Dex +6, Enhancement +1, two-weapon fighting -2
Natural weapons +6: BAB +2, Dex +6, secondary attack with multiattack -2

He could also make a single attack with the gythka (using it as a two-handed weapon), which would then have an attack bonus of +6 (as the +4 without the -2 penalty) and do 1d10+5 damage (Str bonus x1.5, +1 magic). The claws and bite would be unaffected.

(Psi)Severedhead-- I'm not sure exactly what Thri-Kreen of Athas is, is that an old Darksun book?

You guessed it, Thri-kreen of Athas is a Dark Sun book. It's extremely good for describing what the thri-kreen of Athas are all about, and could be pretty useful as inspiration about what they're like in other settings, but the stats bit of it would be pretty irrelevant in a 3.5e game.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

(Psi)Severedhead-- I'm not sure exactly what Thri-Kreen of Athas is, is that an old Darksun book? The campaign we are in is strictly 3.5 Forgotten Realms, I don't think the stats from Darksun would be relevant... thank-you though.

It had wonderful flavor, and actually bothered to explain things clearly.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

Thanks guys, you have been very helpful with the information provided. Staffan—unfortunately the character doesn’t have the Multiweapon fighting feat yet. He picked up the “winged” template from the Savage Species, and so have an ECL 7 character that is only a 1st-lvl Psychic Warrior, and have only 2 feats to pick (if that was calculated correctly). He has Deflect Arrows (as a free racial feat), and picked up Weapon Finesse (to take advantage of that Dex) and Multiattack (for a -2 instead of -5 penalty). Maybe the Multiweapon Fighting would be the next choice. How would the sequence go without the Multiweapon Fighting feat?

 

[Staffan]

Without multi-weapon fighting, reduce the primary hand's attack bonus by -4 and the secondary hand's by -8 (from -2/-2 to -6/-10). This doesn't apply when using the gythka as a two-handed weapon, only when using it as a double-weapon.

So the full attack would look like this:
Gythka +6 (1d10+5) and 2 claws +6 (1d4+1) and bite +6 (1d4+1 plus poison) OR
Gythka +0 (1d10+4) and gythka -1 (1d10+2) and 2 claws +6 (1d4+1) and bite +6 (1d4+1 plus poison)

I think he would be better served by taking Multiweapon Fighting instead of Multiattack, and use shortswords instead of his claws. Then it would look like this:
Gythka +4 (1d10+4) and gythka +7 (1d10+2) and 2 shortswords +6 (1d6+1/19-20) and bite +3 (1d4+1 plus poison). Far better attack bonus with the gythka and some bonus damage with the swords (instead of claws), in exchange for a somewhat lower attack bonus with the bite.

 

[Iku Rex]

I think he would be better served by taking Multiweapon Fighting instead of Multiattack, and use shortswords instead of his claws.

Or he could just use two gythka.

(Or, one weapon designed for four hands for 2.5 Str mod bonus damage, as per Savage Species.)