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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8711530" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Since this is supposed to be a + thread, let's try and drag this back to discussing the merits of a deathless game. Because I do have a play expeirence that I think highlights the single most common reason that I as a player and as a DM, do not like character death. Now, the funny thing about this is that this story doesn't involve a character death. This was the party where I was playing my Gnome Cleric, and the party repeatedly murdered an innocent woman in front of him, while mocking him for trying to save her because she was "clearly evil" since Strahd came to kill them whenever they attacked her. (Should I have left the group? Probably, but my friend was the DM and had invited me, and I was trying not to just abandon him) So, my gnome cleric, who was a good doctorly type, revived the woman AGAIN, handed her over to Strahd to protect her, and left Barovia. (What? But Strahd is evil. Yeah, but he hadn't murdered her twice in the same hour for the crime of being scared and being Strahd bait) Now then, still playing the game I had to make a new character, who was already in Barovia (which was a side-stop in the game) and who could actually stomach standing next to these people. So, I made a fiend pact warlock, whose goal was to become an archdevil and had gained his powers by consuming a weak fiend. I had all these plans for how he would secretly work to create a cult and a few other things. And none of it mattered. First off, he was starting at level 15, so it was weird he didn't have a cult, but the DM couldn't justify a new character having that much power. Secondly, since he was a new character no one wanted to talk to him or RP with him, because he was new and they didn't have a relationship with him. The game was also about to end, so I only ended  up having three or four sessions, completely disconnected from every story thread we'd spent two years building, where he basically just... existed. Now, again, I know situation didn't arise due to character death, but when I think of character death, I think of this situation a lot. Because that feeling of being entirely disconnected from everything is what I think permanent character death often causes. Sure, it can happen early enough that the players can all "get over it" and reintegrate. Or it can happen late enough that everyone is like "well, that's the game" but I find this to be a major detriment to people's enjoyment. Because the fun of the game is being involved in the story, and when you have to bring in someone who wasn't involved, it becomes... awkward and weird. And, I will note, many of the stories I've heard of older editions like show in KoTD seem like they... get really silly to try and fight this problem. "This is Knuckles the VIII, the half-brother of Knuckles the VII who knows everything that is going on, because he wrote letters to me and his will told me what needs to be done." Did he actually write any letters or a will or anything else? No, generally they didn't, generally they just used it as a justification to make a clone of their character and give them all their items. So, at that point... why not just skip the convolution and make it so Knuckles didn't die? The end result (the same character with the same gear) is still maintained, but now the story can be far simpler. Maybe even with a new mystery to solve as a consequence for their death.</blockquote>

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