D&D 5E Questions from a Newb

[Greenfield]

Hrmmm... I apprenticed with a lock smith and I'll tell you that picking a lock is a specifically trained skill. You can have the dexterity of a master magician and the finest set of picks in the world, but if you don't know what to do with those tools, you ain't getting that lock open.

Are you sure it isn't covered in a specific skill?

 

[iserith]

Hrmmm... I apprenticed with a lock smith and I'll tell you that picking a lock is a specifically trained skill. You can have the dexterity of a master magician and the finest set of picks in the world, but if you don't know what to do with those tools, you ain't getting that lock open.

Are you sure it isn't covered in a specific skill?

It's a Dexterity check. If you have the proficiency for thieves' tools, you can add the appropriate proficiency bonus (or double that bonus if you have Expertise, a class feature). In some cases, a DM might say that you have no chance of success in picking a particular lock without proficiency in thieves' tools.

 

[Mercule]

Hrmmm... I apprenticed with a lock smith and I'll tell you that picking a lock is a specifically trained skill. You can have the dexterity of a master magician and the finest set of picks in the world, but if you don't know what to do with those tools, you ain't getting that lock open.

Are you sure it isn't covered in a specific skill?

It's covered by proficiency in the tools, themselves. One big difference in 5E is that proficiency in a given tool is explicitly and intentionally called out as a thing -- and is considered as valuable as an actual skill proficiency. Other editions (thinking 3.5, but it applies across the board, IIRC) require proficiency in a skill and tools give a bonus to that skill. Knowing a guy who can pick some surprising locks with a paperclip, I prefer the skill proficiency, but I can live with the 5E way. Maybe just rule that something like that is still an instance of the tool, but grants disadvantage or a static penalty. *shrug*

It's DMO as to whether you can try something untrained. I'm not consistent in application, myself. If forced into a ruling, though, I'd say that I tend to allow skills to be used untrained, but not tools.

 

[pdegan2814]

Hrmmm... I apprenticed with a lock smith and I'll tell you that picking a lock is a specifically trained skill. You can have the dexterity of a master magician and the finest set of picks in the world, but if you don't know what to do with those tools, you ain't getting that lock open.

Are you sure it isn't covered in a specific skill?

This is one of those situations where the game mechanics have been simplified vs real life mechanics. Tool proficiencies are handled very similar to skill proficiencies, with a slight difference. If you're proficient with a set of tools, then you can add your proficiency bonus to an ability check you make when using that tool. But a specific set of tools isn't automatically tied to a specific ability score, the way skills like Insight and Persuasion are. The example Wizards uses is on p154 of the PHB, with woodcarver's tools. If you're carving something that involves a lot of fine detail, then the DM might ask for a Dexterity check. If you're carving something out of a particularly hard wood, the DM might require a Strength check instead. In each case, if you're proficient in woodcarver's tools you would be able to add your proficiency bonus in addition to the appropriate ability modifier.

I don't know if it's stated explicitly one way or the other, but I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to use tools they aren't proficient in, they just wouldn't get to apply the bonus to their ability check rolls. So for example, if your party's Rogue was kidnapped but their Thieves' Tools were left behind, someone else in the party could use them to try and pick a lock, they just wouldn't be adding their proficiency bonus.

 

[Shiroiken]

One correction--you do not suffer disadvantage for using a non-proficient (or even improvised) weapon. All you lose is the proficiency bonus.

Ah, good. I must have been remembering from the playtest. I thought the double whammy seemed too rough.

 

[Unwise]

Hrmmm... I apprenticed with a lock smith and I'll tell you that picking a lock is a specifically trained skill. You can have the dexterity of a master magician and the finest set of picks in the world, but if you don't know what to do with those tools, you ain't getting that lock open.

Are you sure it isn't covered in a specific skill?

The thing is, you can't pick a lock with your bare hands, so that is why it is not a skill. Its an odd distinction, but that is how 5e does it. Like riding a horse, you can't do it without a horse, therefore it is a tool proficiency, not a skill. The lines get blurry with things skills like Medicine, as that makes you a GP, but Proficiency Healers Kit makes you a trauma surgeon. Same goes with Animal Handling not being about Riding which is Proficiency Land Animals or something similar (I let animal handling apply, as it is not an exciting skill in its own right).

There are some instances where the DM might apply disadvantage or not even allow a roll without a good reason why your untrained character could do it. For instance, most arcana checks, complex navigation calculations, knowledge of a land you have no reasonably been to or studied etc. Personally, lock picking is one of those things for me, most people can't pick up lockpick tools and have a decent chance of knowing what to do with them. They might get lucky, but I'm likely giving them disadvantage at best. The same goes for surgery and many other applications.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Ah, good. I must have been remembering from the playtest. I thought the double whammy seemed too rough.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, you'll almost never find yourself in a situation of using a non-proficient weapon, but the double penalty was about as bad as AD&D's "you can't use that weapon" rules.

The thing is, you can't pick a lock with your bare hands, so that is why it is not a skill. Its an odd distinction, but that is how 5e does it. Like riding a horse, you can't do it without a horse, therefore it is a tool proficiency, not a skill. The lines get blurry with things skills like Medicine, as that makes you a GP, but Proficiency Healers Kit makes you a trauma surgeon. Same goes with Animal Handling not being about Riding which is Proficiency Land Animals or something similar (I let animal handling apply, as it is not an exciting skill in its own right).

There are some instances where the DM might apply disadvantage or not even allow a roll without a good reason why your untrained character could do it. For instance, most arcana checks, complex navigation calculations, knowledge of a land you have no reasonably been to or studied etc. Personally, lock picking is one of those things for me, most people can't pick up lockpick tools and have a decent chance of knowing what to do with them. They might get lucky, but I'm likely giving them disadvantage at best. The same goes for surgery and many other applications.

More playtest flashbacks!

There is no healer's kit proficiency in the game. They are just something anyone can use. (There is an herbalism kit proficiency, however).

There also is no longer a mounts proficiency (though there are Vehicles (land) and Vehicles (water) and I'm sure you could make more for your campaign if needed).

 

[Greenfield]

... Personally, lock picking is one of those things for me, most people can't pick up lockpick tools and have a decent chance of knowing what to do with them. They might get lucky, but I'm likely giving them disadvantage at best. The same goes for surgery and many other applications.

No, they won't get lucky. Blind luck won't do it. That's like "accidentally" threading a needle, four times in a row. You need to know what you're trying to do, and you need to know what you're doing.

All the stories about picking locks with a paper clip are bogus. The old scenes from McGuyver of him opening padlocks with the leather punch on his pocket knife aren't even laughable.

You *can* pick a pair of handcuffs with a paper clip, if it's just the right size. You can't pick them with a hair pin, unless you can file it down a bit first. You might shim them open with one, if they're ratchet type like Smith and Wesson or Peerless, and happen to be old and worn, and the officer neglected to double-lock them. Spur type mechanisms can't be shimmed, no matter what tool you use. (Odd note on handcuffs: Why hide a lock pick? Hide a spare key instead. All standard the cuffs in the U.S. are keyed alike. )

Even a simple set of picks will include a couple of different sizes of tension bars, a few hooks and several different rakes. Even if you accidentally select the right tools for the lock at hand, you don't just stick them in and wriggle them around.

I could get technical, but picking a lock is more about knowledge than dexterity.

 

[Greenfield]

Getting off the subject of locks...

I've let a few things percolate for a bit. Sorry if I seem slow, I'm just trying to understand.

Does Perform skill not include any musical instruments? They're listed as tools a character can be proficient with, but if they're not included in the general skill then the skill is limited to song and dance, maybe acting. Rather narrow, when all is said and done. Couldn't really include real serious theater, unless Disguise is somehow included: Playing a part on stage involves makeup, costume etc.. To really carry the part you'd also need some Deception to fully carry the part.

Okay, I'm going overboard, I know, and I probably shouldn't. But some things don't fit very neatly into a single box.

Proficiency with land vehicles overlaps with handle animals, considering how many land vehicles in a medieval setting either are animals, or call for directing and controlling them. Driving something with wheels calls for knowledge not only of the vehicle (be it a two wheel light cart or a huge and heavy freight wagon), but also with managing the team that draws it.

In short, it gets hard to separate the tool from the task. How could one have a skill in carpentry without that including tool specific proficiency with hammer and saw, even though knowing how to drive a nail without smashing your thumb doesn't make anyone a cabinette maker. (And yes, I know that neither of those specifics exist in D&D 5.)

Using skills/tools that are in the game: Knowing how to use an astrolabe and sextant (navigation tools) won't do you a bit of good without knowing the stars, or having a good star chart, and none of that will help you if you haven't got a map with longitude and latitude marked on it. Sun sightings? Have a good timepiece? Like, accurate to the second, over a period of weeks? (The British crown offered their version of the X-Prize at one time for someone who could come up with that timepiece, by the way. The equivalent of several million dollars...).

You get my point. It may have been the designers plan to separate the skills from the tools, and maybe that's workable. It just seems like an arbitrary bit of hair splitting, one that won't bear any real examination or challenge.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Basically, it allows them to make skills more powerful (you only ever get so many of them), while tools and languages are more limited but easier to pick up. You can spend downtime to rack up as many of them as your DM and your lifespan will allow, no XP required.

It works alright in general. The one weird exception is that thieves' tools are a tool, but they are best tool of the bunch--more along the lines of a skill really.

In the Perform example, I think you've got it more or less right. Perform is generally a Charisma based skill that allows you to entertain. Musical instrument proficiency allows you technical expertise (generally with Dexterity), but has little to do with your relation to the audience. If you want to make good use of a musical instrument in a performance you need both the skill and the instrument proficiency. (Of course, if you aren't proficient in the instrument, but are just kind of strumming chords occasionally as part of some overall performance, I don't think it will ruin it. Same goes with giving a performance without Perform--if your Charisma is good, you'll do fine with just the musical instrument proficiency.)

Bards get 3 musical instrument proficiencies as a class feature at level 1, and anyone can pick up 1-2 of them via their background (customizable by default, so you can always choose your tools/languages and skills granted by a background).

One thing I wouldn't do is require Deception along with Perform. If you are putting on a performance, it doesn't need Deception. It's a different thing really.