Quick & Dirty d20 Linguistics free document (DRAFT)

[Desdichado]

I've been putting some thought into linguistics in d20, and making the skill a bit more realistic and usable. Here's a draft (in rtf form) for you to look at. I'd like some feedback or comments.

EDIT: Replaced the rtf document with a pdf, for easier cross-platform viewing. Same content.

Thanks for the comments, folks! I'll have more to say tomorrow.

 

[The Other Librarian]

Nice job! best 34 kb I downloaded today.

As to comments and criticism...

I agree with your assesment that most groups won't want to mess with this much detail. In my experience, even the simple step of eliminating a "common tongue" tends to frustrate players. But I like your first bash at the system.

The virtual ranks bother me a bit. In all but the closest related languages, I don' think the amount of comprehension gained is worth the trouble of keeping up with. Since one or two words in a passage could mean almost anything without the rest of the context, I would maybe devise a system where ranks in a related language (close family or dialectical) give a synergy bonus or allow an untrained check. ( I didn't catch whether your SL check was trained only or not)

Dialects in a fantasy world would be harder to understand than in our world, where mass media smoothes out a lot of rough edges (assuming a medieval type world where populations can live in relative isolation). Maybe switch dialect to a -2 penalty on the check, and -4 for close family. Reading a close family language then would require a 20 to get the nearly full meaning, for the most part the best you could hope for would be the gist. For the more distant relatives, I wouldn't allow a check, except to maybe identify the language, as to region or era.

For Comprehend Languages, perhaps consider not banning it altogether, but making it the purview of classes with more linguistic concern, ie a class spell for bards, or a loremaster ability, maybe raising the level

Nice ideas though. I really liked the section on custom names, and names associated with language, which some games do attempt, but often with limited success. Players have a habit of being willfull about their names. I might go so far as to advocate a randomly generated name based on background.

Anyway, good stuff. Hope my rambling gave you some food for thought.

 

[barsoomcore]

I seem to be having all sorts of trouble downloading it. Hm. I'll keep trying.

 

[Desdichado]

Synergy bonus is a good idea. As for how well you can understand one language by knowing another, closely related one, I've only got my first-hand (and second-hand) experience. The example showcased in the document, that of a Spanish speaker understanding a good 75% or better of both Portuguese and Italian is based on my experience of living in Argentina, speaking Spanish (formerly quite fluently, although I've hardly used it at all in the last 12 years or so) and running into Brazilians and Italians all the time who didn't speak Spanish. I clearly remember, also, watching the news and seeing reporters ask people on the street in both Brazil and Italy questions in Spanish, and them answering in their language, and pretty much everyone getting along just fine. I know that Catalan is just as closely related, if a bit more obscure. With written documents, the percentage of what I can understand is even higher.

I've got similar reports from my brother who speaks Polish from when we were in Prague, and he was attempting to talk to people who only spoke Czech. I've also heard similar reports about the various Scandinavian languages (although linguists tend to say that they really should be dialects from a linguistic standpoint, not separate languages.) And my other brother who speaks Russian says that Byelorussian and Ukrainian are similarly related.

On the other hand, just because I speak English doesn't mean I understand very much Dutch or German, or even Frisian, which is supposedly our closest relative, so clearly it depends on the language. But that's why I have two categories; the somewhat nebulously labelled "Closely Related" and "More Distantly Related." But that's good feedback, I think the divisions are somewhat arbitrary, so there's no reason not to jerk up the modifiers across the board, and if you want a more understandable relationship, then you simply move it up to a closer band.

As to the Comprehend Languages banning it altogether is probably a bad idea. It's not really an issue in most non-D&D games, and wouldn't be an issue in any game I ran. But it is a bit of a copout, in retrospect, to simply say; it "will make obsolete all these rules, so don't use it," essentially. Your suggestions seem to be pretty good ones.

 

[Nightcloak]

d20 Linguistics

I am greatly intrigued by your system. It adds realism (or should I say “the illusion of reality” ) for those of us who like such verisimilitude in our game. But it doesn’t go over board on rules to simulate real life linguistic complexities that would most likely frustrate the players. I’d say it’s very well done.

I do think The Other Librarian has the right idea with using synergy bonuses and language skills as untrained instead of virtual ranks. What if taking ranks in a language would allow you to use distant family languages untrained while having 5 ranks in that language would give you a +2 synergy bonus in a close family language.

Example: I roll up a new character and place 5 ranks in Speak Language (Spanish). I would be able to use the skills Speak Language (Italian) and Speak Language (Romanian) untrained and also get a +2 bonus in Speak Language (Italian).

The reason I like this approach is that it builds on existing rule techniques, and that would make it easier for players to pick up and use “off the shelf”.

But this is just more food for thought, I really like what you have done. I’m currently building my new campaign world from the ground up and I would like to use your system at the ground level. I can combine your language ideas with the idea of progenitor races in Expeditious Retreats Magical Society: Ecology and Culture. The ancient race would be the super family relationship and I can build up (or should I say down) from there though history to develop cultures (and their languages) that split apart, but are still linked by concise families of distant or close as reflected by their language.

Also, Comprehend Languages might be changed to offer a bonus to a specific Speak Languages skill of the characters choice. This would make it useful but not a system breaker after the characters get to the mid levels.

Great Work!

 

[The Other Librarian]

But that's good feedback, I think the divisions are somewhat arbitrary, so there's no reason not to jerk up the modifiers across the board, and if you want a more understandable relationship, then you simply move it up to a closer band.

You're right, in the real world there is a lot of variation. The Gm, if he is building a family of languages from scratch, won't have to worry about the variance. If he decides that language A is closely releted to language B then it is, to exactly the degree he wants.

The thing I would be more worried about is if someone were using real world languages, say in a d20 modern or future game. I think you'd run the risk of players arguing based on personal experience, which can sometimes be disruptive, or hard to adjuducate without seeming arbitrary.

 

[mythusmage]

I had a look at it. For the most part I liked what I saw. I did reformat the beast and put it into PDF. I also mangled your deathless prose. (Cleaning up language, deleting extraneous verbiage, expanding on truncated prose, that sort of thing.)

I do have this to say about English.

English is now considered to be something of a Creole. A blend of different languages. While the core is Germanic, the grammar is unique in many ways, and the vocabulary is a stew of different tongues. In a sense, English is what you get when you let a pidgin develop for a few centuries.

Which means that while it is listed among the Germanic languages, it really isn't one. It's a strange bird that actually belongs in its own group.

BTW, have you seen Gary Gygax's Extraordinary Book of Names from Troll Lord Games? It has a few tables in the back you can use to roll up names.

Hope this helps.

 

[Gez]

I've been putting some thought into linguistics in d20, and making the skill a bit more realistic and usable.

Have you seen this, BTW?

 

[Desdichado]

I also mangled your deathless prose.

I'm a firm believer that "deathless" prose is better than the alternative.

I do have this to say about English.

English is now considered to be something of a Creole. A blend of different languages. While the core is Germanic, the grammar is unique in many ways, and the vocabulary is a stew of different tongues. In a sense, English is what you get when you let a pidgin develop for a few centuries.

Which means that while it is listed among the Germanic languages, it really isn't one. It's a strange bird that actually belongs in its own group.

That's true, although that's farther than I've ever heard any linguist take it. After all, very few languages develop in isolation, and many other languages have similar attrition in vocabulary, or even basic structure, from their ancestral condition.

BTW, have you seen Gary Gygax's Extraordinary Book of Names from Troll Lord Games? It has a few tables in the back you can use to roll up names.

Hope this helps.

Have not. Oddly enough, I'm not a big fan of Gygax's prose.

BTW, I'd love to see your edits.

 

[Desdichado]

Have you seen this, BTW?

Nope. But I'll go have a look.