Quick & Dirty d20 Linguistics free document (DRAFT)

[mythusmage]

Have not. Oddly enough, I'm not a big fan of Gygax's prose.

BTW, I'd love to see your edits.

While the Colonel's name is part of the title, it's not his writing. Chap name of Malcolm Bowers wrote it, and did a good job too.

I've attached my edit below for folks' perusal. I kept it to text editing, since Im not that hot on mechanics. You may want to rename the file so it doesn't overwrite the original. Comments on the layout would also be nice. (Yes, I shrunk the OGL stuff to fit it in 8 pages.)

 

[barsoomcore]

Quick notes:

I couldn't figure out how native languages are handled, unless they're handled exactly like acquired languages, in which case I think it's weird that you can't take 10 when listening to your own language being spoken.

On the other hand, I'd like a ruleset in which native and acquired languages are treated exactly the same, and acquired under the rules in exactly the same way (via skill points), to forestall player origin machinations ("I have FIVE native languages, okay?").

I think the simplest thing to do is to say that at character generation, all characters get X number of skill points in one language. They can apply any number of other skills points they possess to that language or other languages, I guess.

Native speakers can easily misunderstand and fail to comprehend speech or writing in their own languages, though I don't think I'd want a ruleset that asked me to make a check EVERY time I tried to understand anyone speaking. That would get tedious fast.

I think allowing characters to take 10 on listening as well as writing might solve that problem, though -- assuming the default ranks for a native tongue are enough that by taking 10 the character will pretty much always understand the basics of what's being said. My experience with language acquisition is that my comprehension doesn't vary much -- certainly not by +-20 on a base of 5!

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, that probably wasn't clear -- mostly because I was trying to keep options open rather than proscribe a solution. My suggestion was that whatever automatic languages you have via the normal rules, you get five ranks "for free." Of course, that's mainly for book-keeping anyway, why would you ever make a check to understand something in your native language? I can't see why you would, although maybe you could use it to replicate the old Innuendo skill, which was removed.

As for why I wrote that you can't take 10, that was based on a faulty recollection of what taking 10 and 20 respectively was. My thought was, "you can't 'take your time' and understand speech better because of it" but that really applies more to taking 20. Taking 10, on rereading the description, probably would be appropriate after all.

That also helps with the variability; once you are relatively fluent, your comprehension should be fairly "steady".

Of course, how many times would you take 10 to understand something in your native language? Using Speak Languages check every time you speak to someone would be the equivalent of making characters make a series of Balance checks every time the character decides to walk across the street. If you use it at appropriately dramatic points; like trying to eavesdrop on the spies huddled in the corner of the tavern, trying to read the ancient text you've discovered buried at the base of the pyramid, trying to understand someone who speaks with a heavy accent or something like that, etc. that variation makes a bit more sense.

 

[barsoomcore]

Yeah, if the rules could give me a pretty clear set of situations under which a Speak Languages check applies, that'd be cool

Innuendo is a good one -- you can use your Speak Languages check to try and communicate something to somebody else without anyone else noticing. Having entertained myself making snide comments about Japanese train commuters to my wife in English, I can well attest to how useful a second language is in this regard.

Speak Languages might also be tied to Sense Motive -- it's somewhat easier to judge a person's sincerity if you have a good grasp of what they're saying. It's not the only criteria, but perhaps a penalty if you don't possess sufficient ranks in the relevant language (or can't get a high enough check result) would be appropriate.

You have to consider (I think) how it ties to Listen, as well. Eavesdropping really has two components -- can you hear what they're saying, and can you understand whatever it is that you hear? It's easier to understand if you hear better, and it's easier to hear if you have some comprehension, so the two tie to each other, it seems.

You could argue, of course, that characters DO make Balance checks every time they cross the street -- it's just that it's a DC of 5 (if not zero) and walking is such an automatic action that they can take 10 under pretty much any conditions. Babies, for example, can't take 10, and so occasionally roll less than 5 on their Balance checks (if not zero) and stumble. As do drunks.

 

[Nightcloak]

You could argue, of course, that characters DO make Balance checks every time they cross the street -- it's just that it's a DC of 5 (if not zero) and walking is such an automatic action that they can take 10 under pretty much any conditions. Babies, for example, can't take 10, and so occasionally roll less than 5 on their Balance checks (if not zero) and stumble. As do drunks.

I agree. One of the game designers, I believe it was Andy Collins, once pointed out that a skill represents a characters ability to handle a situation that was beyond a day-to-day activity. Most people can swim, but they would only need to make a check if there was a difficulty involved (like a strong current, diving, or the person was weighted down while swimming).

So I would see having ranks in Speak Language as giving you the ability to use the language normally, but not necessarily under a difficult situation. You would need to start rolling for checks if you attempted a Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, or Disguise check with someone in that language.

 

[barsoomcore]

You would need to start rolling for checks if you attempted a Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, or Disguise check with someone in that language.

But now that starts getting weird. Do I need to make TWO checks everytime I use one of those skills?

Maybe Speak Languages shouldn't have checks associated with it. Maybe there's a scale that indicates general comprehension according to the number of ranks you have. When you attempt to use one of these skills in a language, the number of ranks you have in that language can affect your roll (say, a -1 on your Bluff check for every 2 ranks below whatever we decide is "fluency"). You suffer a certain penalty for having NO ranks in the language being used (you can still try to Bluff someone w/out being able to speak their language, but it'll be hard).

This means you don't have to invent new situations that didn't previously require checks, or alter the existing checks already asked for -- being able to speak more languages means you can use your existing skills more effectively in more situations, which seems appropriate to me.

What say you, good people?

 

[barsoomcore]

You could also vary the number of ranks required to achieve "fluency" (the point at which one no longer suffers a penalty on language-based skills) according to campaign style -- and you could use the notion of related languages to reduce the penalties being applied.

 

[Nightcloak]

But now that starts getting weird. Do I need to make TWO checks everytime I use one of those skills?

Maybe Speak Languages shouldn't have checks associated with it. Maybe there's a scale that indicates general comprehension according to the number of ranks you have. When you attempt to use one of these skills in a language, the number of ranks you have in that language can affect your roll (say, a -1 on your Bluff check for every 2 ranks below whatever we decide is "fluency"). You suffer a certain penalty for having NO ranks in the language being used (you can still try to Bluff someone w/out being able to speak their language, but it'll be hard).

This means you don't have to invent new situations that didn't previously require checks, or alter the existing checks already asked for -- being able to speak more languages means you can use your existing skills more effectively in more situations, which seems appropriate to me.

What say you, good people?

Good point. I like your solution better.

The last thing we need is a new game mechanic and more dice rolling to slow the game down. If you are "below fluency" in the language then you have one penalty that can be applied to all language dependent skill checks when you use that language. This is easier and can be applied across the board to different situations like Language-Dependant spells and effects. The penalty can be applied to the DC of the spell or effect for characters casting such spells while using a language of which they are not fluent.

 

[Desdichado]

Maybe Speak Languages shouldn't have checks associated with it.

Oddly enough, the GM of our other game with this same group, Mrs. Shadowlight (who is an infrequent lurker here) independently came up with this same concept, although it hasn't yet been integrated into our game. Her idea was something along the lines of taking various ranks in Speak Language just to make it not such a throwaway skill. One rank and you can do things like ask where the bathroom is, and say, "Hello, my name is xxx." Two ranks, and you can have relatively decent conversations and/or readings of texts in that language, three ranks and you speak with native fluency. Four ranks and you can recognize regional dialects, archaic versions of the language, technical jargon, etc.

It'd be a static skill, though -- you wouldn't actually make checks, you'd simply dictate (by the amount of ranks) how well you spoke/read a language.

She also proposed that languages with some similarily could be purchased as class skills, i.e., one skill point per rank. Something that was fairly different; alphabetical writing vs. ideograms, for example, or adding a difficult or unusual element like tones, etc. would cost you the equivalent of a cross-class skill to pick up (two skill points per rank.) Something totally alien, like mimicking the clacking mandible sounds of thri-kreen, or something like that could even potentially cost you three skill points per rank.

 

[barsoomcore]

It'd be a static skill, though -- you wouldn't actually make checks, you'd simply dictate (by the amount of ranks) how well you spoke/read a language.

Yeah, exactly. The only thing I'd add is that whenever you use a skill that requires language use (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive), you take a penalty if you're using a language that you don't have X number of ranks in. Obviously there are uses of those skills that don't use language, and for those you don't take the penalty, but when it applies, it, er, applies.

That makes Speak Language something useful that's actually integrated into the existing rules, AND makes all those, "Now who speaks Flahoodish in the party?" questions important to answer.