Quick DR Question and Regarding Golems...

[Taren Seeker]

But then, how do you decide what the Golem is affected by? Infinite SR is about the easiest to adjucate what Golems are affected by.

Otherwise, you have to decide what happens when a Golem is buried by a Move Earth spell. Or a Wall of Iron is toppled onto them. Or if they can see Invisible creatures. Or whether or not they can cross bridges made from Fabricate. Or if a magically propelled arrow would still harm it. Or if a telekenesis driven boulder can hurt a Golem when it drops on him.

There are hundreds of examples just like those, where the golem *should* be affected, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You decide by...deciding. Read the spell and make a call. Most are self evident, and it ends up being more consistent than the unbeatable SR concept.

Move Earth: The Earth is moved, not the golem. Buried.
Wall of Iron: A real wall is created and crushes the golem (a wall is instantaneous)
Invisible creatures: Invisibility does not affect the Golem, it affects the target. Unless of course, you cast invis on the golem, in which case it wouldn't work.
Fabricate creates mundane material. Golem walks over it.
Propelled arrow: I assume you mean launch bolt or the like. The arrow is what's hitting the golem, so it does damage. There's nothing magical about velocity.
Telekinesis boulder: Same as the arrow above. There's no difference in the effect if the boulder is hurled by TK or a giant's arm. Damage is dealt normally.

Whether or not the spell allows SR is a good indicator of whether or not a golem is immune, but it cannot be a hard and fast rule. If you make SR the ONLY indicator you begin to encounter inconsistencies, like the Maze spell or Solid Fog. Does anyone really think that these spells should work when reading the description of the golem immunity ability in the MM?

 

[Taren Seeker]

Well, I was more curious as what the importance was of whether or not the flames from a flaming weapon were surpernatural. Techinically, torches and flaming weapons are both just energy.

It's important since the golem is immune to Su effects. If the flame is Su, the golem would be immune. That doesn't feel right to me. I think you're saying here that the flames would affect the golem because it has unbeatable SR, which does not affect Su effects. However, this is not consistent with the writeup of the immunity ability.

This also somewhat backs up the Sage's view of a Golem's magic immunity being treated as unbeateable SR.

Not to parrot you, but how so?

How so? I think you might have lost me, or I lost you. Either way...help?

Ah, nevermind. I think I was trying to say something else and something just popped. In my brain.

 

[the Jester]

I have to admit, in cases like these one of the things I put more stock into than the Sage's rulings is precedent from older editions. So I'd say that, for instance, a Maze spell wouldn't effect it.

I'd also say that the magic flame around a flaming weapon would do no harm to a golem (unless vulnerable to fire) with magic immunity.

On the other hand, normal fire....

 

[kreynolds]

It's important since the golem is immune to Su effects. If the flame is Su, the golem would be immune. That doesn't feel right to me.

Ah. I see the problem. It's how you look at flaming weapons. They aren't spell-like and they aren't supernatural. Quite simply, they are just magical energy damage. SR doesn't negate it. Energy Resistance might. Anti-Magic or deadmagic zones definately will. I think the problem is more how you are trying to categorize flaming/shocking/etc weapons.

I think you're saying here that the flames would affect the golem because it has unbeatable SR, which does not affect Su effects.

Nope.

However, this is not consistent with the writeup of the immunity ability.

Which is precisely why I didn't say it.